What can new SWO officers expect after completing OCS?

[navy09]

No, it doesn't, but any idiot can learn the paperwork along with the rest of the 'other half' of your job.

You'd be surprised.

I find it very telling and indicative of SWO-dom that they place such a high priority on that but don't bother to try and at least train you on the basics of driving and fighting a ship before you report to one.

There you go, I completely agree. The "fighting" is really left to the department heads who get a lot more training. Still, there's no doubt that the lack in basic seamanship and training is what leads to a lot of the groundings and collisions we have. You can literally check on board and take the CONN of a $2B warship with very little supervision and absolutely no formal training. Something's broke.

 

[Scoob]

You'd be surprised.

Ahhh yes. But, the other communities have a training pipeline with which to attrite most of that. And therein lies the real difference... I'll say this, though, SWOs definitely have much more experience at coercive leadership than any other community.

 

[navy09]

^Ha, ya Scoob, we all know Navy helo pilots are the "best and the brightest."

 

[BigRed389]

No, it doesn't, but any idiot can learn the paperwork along with the rest of the 'other half' of your job. I find it very telling and indicative of SWO-dom that they place such a high priority on that but don't bother to try and at least train you on the basics of driving and fighting a ship before you report to one.

Not just to be a smartass, how do you suggest they go about training driving/fighting a ship?

They already get simulated conning time. Not ideal IMO, but they're taught the basics, and most importantly, the higher risk maneuvering (UNREP, S&A). It would be lovely if all JOs hit their first ships with as much experience as the USMMA grads, but isn't money tight?
What would be the Return on Investment for training JOs on the basics of "fighting a ship?" The "real" warfighting positions are already filled by those with specialized training. Once onboard, there are opportunities for JOs to observe real world warfighting ops or tactical training.
And considering many SWO JOs don't go on to DH tours, would it really even benefit the Navy?

There are better cracks at the SWO community than 1st tour DivOs, IMO.

 

[Scoob]

^Ha, ya Scoob, we all know Navy helo pilots are the "best and the brightest."

Good, you're training is coming along nicely. Now you earn the hell out of that SWO pin, son.

 

[BACONATOR]

How is a pilot LT who spends his first four years in the Navy in flight school, RAG, and then being Coffee Mess Officer going to be better off when he takes over his first division?

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of things wrong with my community but lack of leadership experience isn't one of them.

Because in those two years, we get exposure to how a squadron runs (from a spectator perspective. We play a minimal role). We stand a lot of duty, so we are at least mostly prepped for that in the fleet.

We have a GENERAL understanding of how the departments run (or at least what they do): Admin, Safety/NATOPS, Training, OPS, Maintenance, etc. We may have a 10% understanding of what really goes on behind the scenes, but we have a bit of direction and mostly get the big picture.

A baby SWO reporting to their first ship knows how to salute, do rifle drill, and general assclownery. They know absolutely NOTHING about their job nor do they even understand the day to day operations of a ship (at least that's what I've gotten from other SWOs). You are speaking out of turn (thought that was MY job??).

Not just to be a smartass, how do you suggest they go about training driving/fighting a ship?

They already get simulated conning time. Not ideal IMO, but they're taught the basics, and most importantly, the higher risk maneuvering (UNREP, S&A). It would be lovely if all JOs hit their first ships with as much experience as the USMMA grads, but isn't money tight?
What would be the Return on Investment for training JOs on the basics of "fighting a ship?" The "real" warfighting positions are already filled by those with specialized training. Once onboard, there are opportunities for JOs to observe real world warfighting ops or tactical training.
And considering many SWO JOs don't go on to DH tours, would it really even benefit the Navy?

There are better cracks at the SWO community than 1st tour DivOs, IMO.

Well maybe if life didn't suck as much and JOs felt more comfortable in their positions and actually enjoyed their jobs, maybe retention would be Higher for SWOs? Isn't it true that SWO JO's are overmanned and SWO DH's are undermanned? If that's true... do you see the connection?

 

[Ducky]

Still, my original point was the same one a sub dude made in a thread I was reading yesterday. He commented on how after his year and a half of nuke school he still didn't understand routine paperwork given to him by one of his guys.

All the operational training makes great pilots, reactor operators, and ship drivers but it doesn't teach you the 'other half' of your job.

Just because you are a good manager, does not make you a good leader. I may have spent two years in flight school; however, my ability to lead any enlisted placed under me is in no way less than yours or any other JO SWO. Thats because one of the biggest parts of leadership is leading by example. Executing my job in a professional manner and setting the example in appearance, profesionalism, motivation, and the ability to listen will go much further than someone simply placed in charge and barking orders to get things done. As with most things, your middle management experience is only as valuable as your ability to learn from the experiences. BTW mission leadership will also have a far greater impact on the troops than Divo leadership.

 

[Flash]

Not just to be a smartass, how do you suggest they go about training driving/fighting a ship?

They already get simulated conning time. Not ideal IMO, but they're taught the basics, and most importantly, the higher risk maneuvering (UNREP, S&A). It would be lovely if all JOs hit their first ships with as much experience as the USMMA grads, but isn't money tight?
What would be the Return on Investment for training JOs on the basics of "fighting a ship?" The "real" warfighting positions are already filled by those with specialized training. Once onboard, there are opportunities for JOs to observe real world warfighting ops or tactical training.
And considering many SWO JOs don't go on to DH tours, would it really even benefit the Navy?

There are better cracks at the SWO community than 1st tour DivOs, IMO.

A real SWO school with some smaller craft to practice shiphandling, like the YP's they have/had (?) at the Naval Academy to start with and maybe even a FFT/DDT to take out for a few days at a time and give everyone a some real experience, not just simulated ones. We have a Navy of approximately 300 ships, we can afford an FFT/DDT or two without an expensive weapons fit to train new SWOs.

We had this discussion a few months ago, it is actually a recurring one here on AW, about the training and professionalism of SWOs. I will go back to an article from Proceeedings that I referenced last time, where a SWO LT did an exchange tour with the Royal Navy and was shocked at how little he actually knew about shiphandling and seamanship. From what little I know the Royal Navy sends their new SWOs to a few ships to learn shiphandling for 6-10 months, and that is all they learn for that time period. IIRC the SWO who wrote the article spent 7 months learning shiphandling and he had to pass some qualification at the end before he went on to learn how to actually fight the ship and start leading sailors. And this was a fully qual'd SWO. I know the RN does business differently, I believe their engineers on ships make it a career and not just a rotatable billet, but there might be some worth looking into that kind of training.

The main point is that SWOs get NO real training before getting thrown out into the fleet. Basic shiphandling skills with some basic tactical training thrown in at an intial SWO school would reap benefits far beyond the amount it would take to set something like that up, which could actually be done on the cheap if you really wanted it. Instead the SWOs still do it all OJT and continue to learn things the hard way.

 

[Thisguy]

What I learned today: SWOs don't know how to pick a fight. This is an aviation board. No one is impressed by your black shoes.

 

[rrawls]

Thanks for the responses everyone however, I feel like this thread has become a battle ground for SWO and Aviators to take shots at one another because of how terrible they feel the other ones lives are or ability to operate and command a ship. Which seems to be a recurring trend here on airwarriors since just about every thread I read turns out to be a bunch of Aviators bashing other jobs (especially SWO). I understand this, it is an aviation board and this is your turf, but it is seriously not informative or productive for guys like me who are newcomers to the Navy and just trying to do everything they can to learn and understand what Navy life is all about. All I wanted by starting this thread was to get some advice on what to expect as a new SWO coming out of OCS. Airwarriors is a great place to find information and get the inside scoop on what’s going on around the Navy, and for that I thank you for your service and time, but a little more positive reinforcement would be nice. Maybe SWO life does suck in the minds of Aviators, but nothing but relentless attacks only causes people such as myself to doubt my decision to join the Navy in the first place, which we all know is entirely the wrong attitude to have going in to the Navy. Call me naive, but no wonder the SWO community is so screwed up because from day one it seems we are told nothing, but the horrors and negatives of being a SWO and none of the positives.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Jesus Christ but you're a sensitive new guy. Sorry, did we hurt your feelings? You came here asking what to expect as a SWO, we said it, from an aviator's perspective, largely appears to suck. That's not "bashing" or "relentless attacks", that's opinions, which you asked for. Sorry they weren't the opinions you wanted.

This isn't school, my man, this is real life. Someone is not always going to be on hand to blow sunshine up your ass because you want it that way. If you want "positive reinforcement," the Navy is going to be very disappointing for you. Surface, Air, Subs, or whatever, that's just not how we roll.

Anyway, just because you started this thread doesn't mean everyone has to confine their posts to your question. Topics wander, and get threadjacked. Deal with it.

 

[BigRed389]

Because in those two years, we get exposure to how a squadron runs (from a spectator perspective. We play a minimal role). We stand a lot of duty, so we are at least mostly prepped for that in the fleet.

We have a GENERAL understanding of how the departments run (or at least what they do): Admin, Safety/NATOPS, Training, OPS, Maintenance, etc. We may have a 10% understanding of what really goes on behind the scenes, but we have a bit of direction and mostly get the big picture.

A baby SWO reporting to their first ship knows how to salute, do rifle drill, and general assclownery. They know absolutely NOTHING about their job nor do they even understand the day to day operations of a ship (at least that's what I've gotten from other SWOs). You are speaking out of turn (thought that was MY job??).



Well maybe if life didn't suck as much and JOs felt more comfortable in their positions and actually enjoyed their jobs, maybe retention would be Higher for SWOs? Isn't it true that SWO JO's are overmanned and SWO DH's are undermanned? If that's true... do you see the connection?

Easier said than done.

I don't hate the warfighting/shipdriving aspect, I hate the stupidity and lack of funds. And more specific gripes wouldn't be appropriate for a public forum. Suffice to say you don't have a clue about this.

And DHs billets are being filled just fine. Plenty of people to take the blood money, and many of the associated deals are pretty tempting for higher performers as well(NPS).

 

[navy09]

Because in those two years, we get exposure to how a squadron runs (from a spectator perspective. We play a minimal role). We stand a lot of duty, so we are at least mostly prepped for that in the fleet.

We have a GENERAL understanding of how the departments run (or at least what they do): Admin, Safety/NATOPS, Training, OPS, Maintenance, etc. We may have a 10% understanding of what really goes on behind the scenes, but we have a bit of direction and mostly get the big picture.

So you stand duty in flight school and that gives you a "general...10%" understanding of how a squadron works? Rog...

What I learned today: SWOs don't know how to pick a fight. This is an aviation board. No one is impressed by your black shoes.

OK all AMDO jokes aside, how on earth do you get shore duty working on your masters at ASU? GEV? That's got to be the best deal in the Navy.

Oh, and go fvck yourself :icon_wink

 

[BigRed389]

A real SWO school with some smaller craft to practice shiphandling, like the YP's they have/had (?) at the Naval Academy to start with and maybe even a FFT/DDT to take out for a few days at a time and give everyone a some real experience, not just simulated ones. We have a Navy of approximately 300 ships, we can afford an FFT/DDT or two without an expensive weapons fit to train new SWOs.

We had this discussion a few months ago, it is actually a recurring one here on AW, about the training and professionalism of SWOs. I will go back to an article from Proceeedings that I referenced last time, where a SWO LT did an exchange tour with the Royal Navy and was shocked at how little he actually knew about shiphandling and seamanship. From what little I know the Royal Navy sends their new SWOs to a few ships to learn shiphandling for 6-10 months, and that is all they learn for that time period. IIRC the SWO who wrote the article spent 7 months learning shiphandling and he had to pass some qualification at the end before he went on to learn how to actually fight the ship and start leading sailors. And this was a fully qual'd SWO. I know the RN does business differently, I believe their engineers on ships make it a career and not just a rotatable billet, but there might be some worth looking into that kind of training.

The main point is that SWOs get NO real training before getting thrown out into the fleet. Basic shiphandling skills with some basic tactical training thrown in at an intial SWO school would reap benefits far beyond the amount it would take to set something like that up, which could actually be done on the cheap if you really wanted it. Instead the SWOs still do it all OJT and continue to learn things the hard way.

Yes, the RN and the navies that built on their model all specialize as topsiders or engineers, and only the operational specialty can become a CO.

We did a Joint exercise with NATO...we were told going in that they'd be incredibly shit hot and blow us all away. I was honestly not that impressed...they were pretty fucked up, and considering we had to adapt to their procedures, we all caught on fairly quick. Also, the RN apparently is having funding/manning issues as well lately.

Ask any SWOs you know how much underway time is allotted to ships these days (without special events). Also ask what fuel restrictions are. Yes we have 300 ships, but money IS tight.

The S African Navy does the same process as the Brits, and I rode them for a few days.

For the most part, I agree with you suggestions, but we'd at least have to extend the initial commitment past 4 years to make it worthwhile.

And before suggesting solutions to a problem, why not find the problem first? What specifically makes you feel the shiphandling/warfighting knowledge is so lacking anyway?

 

[SWO Bubba]

rrawls,

Sorry I missed this thread earlier - I agree with you 100% percent - this banter about what community is better, while sometimes entertaining, is ultimately idiotic and juvenile. You will find most of the strong opinions on either side are held by Junior Officers who are still very community centric. As you get senior, you are exposed to more and see the tremendous capabilities of each community. By the time you reach O-5, everything is equal. I love being at sea on ships, seeing the sunrise and sunsets and feeling the role and pitch a ship - and you should hope that I do!! Otherwise, why the hell am I doing it? Aviators love flying and I hope they do!! They need to be damn good (and somewhat insane) to fly aircraft and helos off ships or put there trust in some other bubba who's doing the flying. Submariners love what they do. CEC Officers as well....etc., etc. etc. Together, we all make one hell of potent fighting force. I've served with Great Americans in all the communities. Even the HR community (can't believe I just said that). And I've also seen plenty of turds on all the communities.

The SWO community does not suck - far from it. SWO retention does not suck – far from it. The 30-year historical retention for SWOs shows a huge dip in the early ‘90s, but has been at ‘80s levels since the late ‘90s - around 35%-40%. There are, however, ENORMOUS challenges right now in the Surface Force, which make life very difficult and extremely painful. However, these things are cyclical and this period will correct itself eventually - only to be replaced by new challenges. Junior Officers haven’t seen these cycles before and are stuck in the here and now. In the early ‘90s, life was hard with post-Cold War budget cuts, exodus of Junior Officers and more. Late ‘90s, DHs suffered longer tours due to lack of DHs. In the 2001/2002 timeframe, many initiatives were implemented in the Surface Force without a clear understanding of the overall combined impact of the initiatives. In 2007/2008, leadership realized we went too far. Organizations can go south really quickly and it will take some time to work the institutional processes to get certain things corrected – like optimal manning. However, many initiatives are underway to get us back on track. It aint gonna happen overnight and daily life aboard ship will continue to be challenging for a few years. But, SWOs aren't the only community struggling. The community "Enterprises" are constantly looking at ways to save money while maintaining readiness - and these two goals are mutually exclusive.

What can you expect as a SWO after OCS - hitting your first ship?

1) You can expect to be challenged professionally.
2) You are not expected to know how to drive a ship or run the engineering plant on day one. There are other division officers one or two years ahead of you that are qualified to do this.
3) We expect you to make mistakes and we will guide you and mentor you.
4) You are expected to serve as Division Officer, if not from day one, quickly upon reporting aboard. You will not be flying solo in this endeavor. You will have support from below in the form of your LCPO/LPO and from above from your Department Head. Read the Division Officer Guide!
4) You are expected to learn. Aviators go to flight school to learn how to fly in a hands-on environment. You will come to your ship to learn how to be a SWO. A YP or some other training craft does not compare to the real thing.
5) We will not spoon feed you! Being a college graduate, you are expected to know how to research and learn a great amount through personal initiative, especially on the administrative side. Understand me clearly on this. We don’t expect you to be self-taught, but we expect you to give an honest effort in looking for the answer before you ask the question. This is one area where the myths of eating our young come from - We will guide you, we will help you if you get stuck and we will actively train you right alongside ourselves. Once you have read and made every effort to comprehend the material, we thoroughly enjoy open discussion and TWO-WAY dialogue to add to your knowledge and hone our skills. And I don’t believe for a second this is any different from any other community. If an Aviator JO asks a DH what NATOPS says about a certain topic, I believe the DH will ask the Aviator JO to look in NATOPS and find out. Message to Garcia!
6) If you refuse to or are incapable of learning, you will be crushed. I'm being honest, but this should be no surprise. There comes a point where we expect you to transition from student to active participant. This comes in the form of earning qualifications for the expected watch stations (CICWO, EOOW, OOD, etc) and then becoming dependable in these watch stations. If you don’t make this transition, and can’t be a dependable contributor to the ship, we will not be happy with you and your professional environment will become tense. Again, this should be no surprise. In the Aviation Community, if you don’t learn or are incapable of flying, you don’t get winged. Same deal, but we don’t have SWO-attrites like flight-attrites.
7) You can expect your ships schedule to change frequently. This is a fact of life, even for aviators. Our Navy is in high demand and schedules shift often to get ships on deployment again.



Keys to success (especially for a SWO, but in any job):

• Love to learn
• Strive to become a contributor to the command
• Quickly learn what taking care of your Sailors means. It is not all about liberty and can be as simple as improving chow or helping break down barriers in checking out tools or solvents for maintenance.
• Realize you can learn just as much from bad leadership examples as you can from good.
• Be enthusiastic. Enthusiasm catches on like wildfire.
• Learn early to let things roll-off your shoulders. Prevent the stress/emotion from rolling downhill. You get your ass chewed – deep breath – don’t react to the emotion – what’s the issue – address it and move on. EASIER SAID THAN DONE IN MANY CASES. Learn this skill and you will be less apt to perpetuate emotion when you are DH or XO or CO.
• Don’t have expectations – come to your ship with open ears, open eyes and an open mind. Take it all in, figure it out and take charge.
• No matter how much you dislike your job, give 100%. That’s what professionalism is all about. Nothing is permanent and a tough situation will change at some point when transfers occur.
• Have a 5 and 10 year plan. Understand how your actions, or inaction, will impact those plans.

Apologies for the lengthy post – but this topic is important to me.

Now - everyone zip there pants back up and quit comparing "package" sizes.

Cheers,
SWO Bubba