War with Iraq Continued

[megan620]

Like many of you, after reading this, I felt like I should put in my two cents. I'll keep this as short as I can, starting with the fact that there is nothing wrong with being a republican. I voted for Bush, and I respect him taking action and saying what the other nations are too afraid to admit. Americans are free to disagree, but as a whole, I think there are too many who protest, just to protest. As for the whole Florida re-count issue, GET OVER IT! If Bush had not won, I would still be supportive of the democrats. Not to mention, the budget defecit. Geez, would we rather not try to prevent terrorism, and stay on budget? We just need to realize that if we go over budget, we do. I am only 22, but I do realize the debt that's growing for our nation, and I know my generation along with others will be footing this ever-growing bill. If its such a pressing issue that we repay our debt NOW, then why don't we collect back the loans we have granted to so many other nations in the past. I think its important to not be frivolous, but spend the money if it keeps our nation even a small bit safer.
And as for the SUV argument, please tell me that you do realize that there are many places where public transportation is just not a feasible option. It takes me 45min to 1hour to drive to school everyday, and there is no bus service available to me. A cab ride to the city costs $50 each way! Sure I could move closer, but then I would be paying a much higher rent if I didn't want to be in an unsafe area. All of that is sure more than the cost of gasoline. I do NOT agree that most people NEED an SUV, but at the same time, here they sure don't know how to clean the roads from ice and snow, and the SUVs with 4x4 would be nicer than my fuel-efficient car. Sure you can get 4x4 from a truck, but they tend to be just as gas guzzling. My point here is that just because some people have the wonderful opportunities to use public transportation and not use gasoline, there are a large amount of Americans who have worked hard to NOT live in the city, to get away from crime, to have their own yard, have better schools for their children, and many other reasons. I dont agree with corporate America driving the largest and most fuel-inefficent SUVs, but just remember there is a flip side to all arguments...and if we try to make it fair for everyone, well, that's just not going to happen.
Finally, Saddam is a threat. If we have said we will use miliatary force to protect ourselves from his threat, then that is what we need to do. If we back down, then that seems to just ask for others to see how far they can go before we'd strike back.
Again, these are just my opinions. Oh yeah, there are sure alot of republicans who arent in Texas. I'll support our military when they leave and when they return wherever my home is. As for protestors, forget them. They need to realize support is what our military needs whether the protestors agree with the decisions of Pres. Bush is not reason to shun those who are trying to make this a safer country to live in.
Megan

 

[kimphil]

First of all, Bush technically didn't win. Post election recounts show that the other guy won more votes in Florida. However, that issue is settled. Let's move on.

Here's something that G.W. said during the State of the Union --

Lower taxes and greater investment will help this economy expand. More jobs mean more taxpayers, and higher revenues to our government. The best way to address the deficit and move toward a balanced budget is to encourage economic growth, and to show some spending discipline in Washington, D.C.

This smacks of Reaganomics. It doesn't work. We spent the better part of the last decade (starting with the first Bush backing out of his "no new taxes pledge") trying to recover from Reaganomics.

Whatever my personal political affliation (can't be too hard to guess), I can accept the rationale for supply side economics, even if I don't personally endorse it. Cutting taxes can stimulate the economy. It's the "spending discipline in Washington, D.C." that I believe is in short supply. It was in short supply during the Reagan administration and I have no reason to believe it won't be in the current Bush administration. Pretending that the government won't run massive deficits is deceptive on the part of the administration and foolish on the part of the American people. Contrary to what the administration would have us believe, we can't eat our cake and have it too.

I'm sorry that some people have horrible commutes, their roads and bridges are poor condition, or they can't possibly live closer to work or school, or their locality can't keep their roads clear of ice and snow. Does that mean I should subsidize their inefficent state and local governments (by paying for inefficent cars and SUVs)? That seems unfair (and, in my opinion, a natural Republican argument).

Your "codespeak" is also disturbing.

there are a large amount of Americans who have worked hard to NOT live in the city, to get away from crime, to have their own yard, have better schools for their children, and many other reasons.

The city I live in now is much cleaner, safer, and has better schools than the countryside I grew up in. Categorizing "the city" as unsafe, with poor performing schools is a generalization that politicians like to use to divide "us" from "them." Believe it or not, there's plenty of crime, pollution and poorly performing schools outside of city limits.

Is Saddam a threat? Of course he is. But is it worth the risk that hundreds, perhaps thousands of American troops will come back in body bags? I personally don't think so. I might be persuaded otherwise if the Bush administration would produce some CONCRETE evidence about Saddam's terrorist links and his intentions to use his weapons of mass destruction AGAINST us.

As far as protesters are concerned, don't lump people who have legitimate reservations about war with the protest "industry." It doesn't make your arguments more persuasive.

One more thing, I support our military, and if a war begins, I hope for the best for our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen.

PS -- Whatever my personal sympathies, I must admit that I wouldn't be caught dead at an antiwar rally, at least in my city. Every legit antiwar protest is accompanied by the hippie pacifists, pro-marijauna people, anti-globalists and someone passing a petition to free _____ from _____. Legit protests get undercut by fringe serial protesters.

PPS -- "Are SUVs destroying our environment?" This is directed at you leftist, tree-hugging present and future aviators (you know who you are!)

This week on PBS's Now with Bill Moyers is a story called "The Road Ahead." Here's a plug from the web site.

In his recent State of the Union address, President Bush proposed $1.2 billion in research funding for hydrogen-powered automobiles. He called on Americans for their support, saying "Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy." What's wrong with the cars we have now? Today, personal vehicles account for 40% of all U.S. oil consumption and 19% of all U.S. carbon emissions.

http://www.pbs.org/now/science/autoemissions.html

PPPS -- Here's something Mr. Bush has left out of his State-of-the-Union address. He wants to triple the tax write-off for three ton SUVs, the most wasteful gas guzzlers of all. This is a triple whammy--An obvious tax break for the rich, paid for by all Americans, a blow to the environment and a pay-off to big oil and Detroit automakers. If we are fighting to defend our oil interests in the Middle East (as I have contended) then war is now more important than ever, not less.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0301/20/a01-64218.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mongol General: ...Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.

 

[davidsin]

I'm just reading statistics. For about the past decade China's economy was growing about 7%. Last year it grew a bit over 8% surpassing expectations of economists. Their economy is on the brink of surpassing Japan the world's #2 economy. While our economy grew about 4% last year, China's percentage doubled ours. Also, they are industrilizing and developing rapidly showing no signs of slowing. As an architect, it's a buzz in our world that China's the place to be working since there is so much development going on there.

Kimphil I don't know where you get this, "It's unlikely that China will duplicate our industrialization. One, with over a billion people, China would quickly become a giant armpit (not good for growth or posterity) and two, future technology will give China alternatives to the internal combustion engine."

Do you see GM, Toyota, Hyundai, Voltzwagon building automobile factories in China developing engines that run on salt water? In fact, they're building the same factories they are building here--factories that are projected to mass produce internal combustion engine automobiles in larger scale then the world has ever seen. How much shelf life do those factories have?? 20, 30 years? Don't count on the future technology that will replace the cubustion engine in China anytime soon. You know how much damage can be done by half a billion combustion engine cars in 20 years--more damage than Americans ever did in our history.

They have the worlds fastest bullet train going from shanghi to beijing. Here in Los Angeles they're planning on building the first US high speed railway by 2016--a train that can't even travel half the speed of the one in China.

As far as duplicating our industrilization...they're manufacturing capabilities are already up to par with ours. Start looking at the labels of where things are Made in. Bush recently did a speach in front of a bunch of stacked boxes that had a stenciled print reading "Made in the U.S.A." When you take a good close look at the backside of those boxes there's a small markered out print that says, "made in China"...need i say anymore?

To put things in perspective, the universities there put out 400,000 engineers per year( not including the massive number of Chinese forign exchange students scattered world wide). 400,000 is more than the total number of graduates the U.S. puts out in every field of study. What do you think those engineers will be doing?...underwater basket weaving?

Oh as a Californian, I want to add one more thing. We're already suffering here from the smog that comes from Asia. For all those tree huggers out there--give it up...it's a lost cause. Come to terms with y/our destiny and and indulge yourself with a fat newly affordable SUV.

Semper fi do or die gung-ho gung-ho gung-ho!

 

[autumn]

Ok, here are my two cents! I feel if Saddam is not delt with now he will one day cause problems again. He had the nerve to call Bush "bloodthursty" when he is the one who orders the death of children in front of their parents (that's one example out of a very long list)!! I don't know how many of you have children but I have a little boy (19 months old) and the thought of having to see something like that makes me very, very angry. Of course the people of Iraq are going to support Saddam on TV because they don't want to be killed or watch their family be killed before them. Saddam rules his country based on lies, deception, and the brutal murder of his OWN people. You can't get much worse than that! If we eliminate this problem now there is a greater chance our children won't have to deal with it. I don't know about you but when my son grows up I would rather see him living a life he dreamed of then saying goodbye to him as he leaves to go fight in a war that we should have done a long time ago. The way I think Saddam needs to be removed is in a body bag! Like they say what goes around comes around, and I think his time is up.

Wow, I feel so much better (lol)!! Freedom of speech, it's a wonderful thing. In conclusion, I think the President will make the right decision at the right time and I will support whatever the future holds.

 

[EA-6B1]

I second what autumn says. I will support whatever our President and his leaders choose to do. I still say that if we would have taken care of this back in '91 we wouldn't be in this position now. Just my .02 cents though. Thanks. God Bless America

Semper FI

 

[kimphil]

davidsin, stay with me here! You're going way off topic! I need you to defend the Bush adminstration, not quibble over China. Don't make me go to LA and slap some sense in you!

You obviously have issues with the Chinese. Maybe you were beat up by Chinese bullies in school. Or you had a bad episode with some Sweet and Sour Pork. Get over it! Go home and hug your mommie! I'd love to tear you apart and show you why you're wrong but the members (rightfully) want to focus on Iraq. Let's discuss.

OK, back on topic.

ersday, you wrote

the rationale for war is to change a political situation in Iraq which could lead to attacks on the United States. To do this, however, is going to require a pretty significant investment of U.S. resources AFTER the defeat of Iraq. When the president's aides try to claim that the whole thing is only going to cost $60 billion... and will require no domestic sacrifices, this makes me VERY skeptical about how willing they are to do what needs to be done after the war.

The cost of the original Gulf War was $80 billion (Economist). However, most of that was paid for by Saudia Arabia and other allies. This time, we pick up the tab.

What's going to be the cost of the next Gulf War? Read this excerpt from the Economist.

[Yale economist William Nordhaus] points to the high costs likely to be incurred after a military victory is secured: eg, in peacekeeping, reconstruction and nation-building. Mr Bush has openly committed America to rebuilding Iraq after ousting Mr Hussein. By examining international experience in post-war Kosovo, East Timor, Haiti and other recent cases, Mr Nordhaus estimates that such non-military costs could reach $600 billion if a liberated Iraq turns out to be more like the West Bank than Kosovo.

He also worries that an Arab boycott or some other political factor could keep a significant share of OPEC oil off the market for many months. And that, of course, would mean higher oil prices, higher inflation, lost economic output, and so on. All told, Mr Nordhaus thinks that even an Iraqi invasion that went well would probably cost about $120 billion in today's money over the next decade?and one that went horribly wrong could end up costing a whopping $1.6 trillion.

That's a lot of money. The Bush administration won't even dare speak these numbers because his support for war would COLLAPSE, even among his tax cutting, war mongering Republican allies. Clearly, the administration is being fuzzy about the price tag, and with good reason -- it's too high.

Autumn, you wrote --

If we eliminate this problem now there is a greater chance our children won't have to deal with it.

For a little perspective, the total expenditures of the federal government is about $1.1 to $1.2 trillion a year. Well I hope your child is willing to deal with the potential crushing cost (worst case scenario -- $1.6 trillion) of a war because he could be paying it for decades.

PS -- What does $1.6 trillion look like?

$1,600,000,000,000. You'd get a hand cramp if you had to write that many zeros in your checkbook.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What would Jesus drive?"

Duh. A truck -- Jesus was a carpenter.

 

[O-man]

So I was thinking about it... and the way I see it- this time we may see some more resistence from these boys. Last time we just flushed them outa land that they had just taken over and chased them all the way home. This time our whole deal is to step foot on Their turf and take sadam out- he may get nastie. NBC nastie. so I was thinking what we would do should he go and shell us with VX or other sh*t that does not care weather or not we have gas masks on. I know that we have people who deal with this like its there MOS- and it got me thinking- and I have a question. Do we have a program for using this same stuff on them? Is that somthing that we even Do- I know that when we are not suposed to go there first and all- but what if thats what it comes to..... do we (or maybe the Army or who ever else) have a program set up to do this? Also- any USMCR's besides myself left out there? every one is Gone with the exception of 03's. I have only heard of a few other grunt units being called up.- and buddies of mine in diferent parts of the country notice the same thing. Were left behind to go to work every day and say the same thing every morning. "No, not yet-"...."No I dont know when" ......"Yes, sorta- and I dont know that". "I dont know about that either". "Yes I heard that too." "No I wont write that on the side of a bomb for you-"."....No- your confusing me with some heavy brass, I dont make those kinds of plans, I just carry a SAWW." "Well of Course youd say that, your a liberal"
ok, enough of that.Venting.
Semper vitory. O-man.

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by O-man
So I was thinking about it... and the way I see it- this time we may see some more resistence from these boys. Last time we just flushed them outa land that they had just taken over and chased them all the way home. This time our whole deal is to step foot on Their turf and take sadam out- he may get nastie. NBC nastie. so I was thinking what we would do should he go and shell us with VX or other sh*t that does not care weather or not we have gas masks on. I know that we have people who deal with this like its there MOS- and it got me thinking- and I have a question. Do we have a program for using this same stuff on them? Is that somthing that we even Do- I know that when we are not suposed to go there first and all- but what if thats what it comes to..... do we (or maybe the Army or who ever else) have a program set up to do this?

Using biological or chemical weapons is a war crime. So if we get hit with NBC we have to take it. That's the price we might have to pay to capture Baghdad. Of course legally, we could retaliate with nukes. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a "smart" nuke that kills only enemy soldiers but avoids civilians.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What would Jesus drive?"

Duh. A truck -- Jesus was a carpenter.

 

[davidsin]

Talk about testosterone overload...my girl for 10 years is Chinese, and my grandfather was a general in the Chinese army. I have no beef with the Chinese, so get your head outta your ass....keep the guns pointed out punchy~

About straying off the topic...look who's making this an Evangelical Environmental Network & Creation Care campaign! Don't be bringing that friggin crap here no one cares~

You're just crying like a little girl because I dismantled your reality didn't I...you know what I'm talking about too.


semper fi

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by davidsin
Talk about testosterone overload...my girl for 10 years is Chinese, and my grandfather was a general in the Chinese army. I have no beef with the Chinese, so get your head outta your ass....keep the guns pointed out punchy~

About straying off the topic...look who's making this an Evangelical Environmental Network & Creation Care campaign! Don't be bringing that friggin crap here no one cares~



semper fi

Ouch Davidsin. If you have no beef with the Chinese why have you been ranting about the terror of their high growth rates or why they're farting on your state of Cali? You made everyone read your drivel about how they're going to rule the the world and how bad that's going to be.

Thanks for the heads-up about your asian connection. I suspected as much since your platitudes from your other posts read like badly translated asian poetry.

One more thing. I'd suggest you keep your godless communist attitude to yourself, that's something that may be okay in the Red Army but the USMC won't appreciate it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What would Jesus drive?"

Duh. A truck -- Jesus was a carpenter.

 

[davidsin]

Obviously you and I are in two different worlds. I am an American born in Texas with Asian roots, and I am a Christian. I'm just a little more complex for you to figure out, which is frusterating you I could tell. But I have no beef with you, so let's not make people read stuff that have nothing to do with the topic.




semper fi

 

[kimphil]

Originally posted by davidsin
Obviously you and I are in two different worlds. I am an American born in Texas with Asian roots, and I am a Christian. I'm just a little more complex for you to figure out, which is frusterating you I could tell. But I have no beef with you, so let's not make people read stuff that have nothing to do with the topic.




semper fi

We are obviously not from two different worlds! I too am an American born in Texas with Asian roots. What a small world! As far as being complex, if you read the undertone in my posts written here, you might have figured that out. I too, have no beef with you so I agree we should move on. Quoting that great philosopher Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What would Jesus drive?"

Duh. A truck -- Jesus was a carpenter.

 

[davidsin]

Then you're a si-bal sekki....jp




semper fi

 

[jason12]

As far as the war with Iraq goes, I fully support the removal of Saddam I mean if not for purely obvious reasons then just to end the conflict between him and other nations from further escalating. Now I don't really care to let you know that i'm not a policy maker but since everyone else deems it approptiate subject matter to cover...I AM NOT A POLICY MAKER. There i fell better now. As for the debate over the SUV craze i mean come on...seriously now who really cares? The muscle car craze of the mid 60's and early 70's did just as much damage to the planet as an SUV. Now granted there wasn't the poppulation of GTO's and Stang's on the road as there are SUV's currently but look at the situation realistically. We are not the only country with automobiles, nor are the the most populated country leading me to believe that there are some other countries out there who are at LEAST moderately contributing to the pollution problem. Now farbeit from me to say that we should stop making SUV's due to pollution, I currently own an SUV and am neither a "soccer mom" nor a rich suburban yuppie trying to flex my social status muscle. It's nice...I like having room available when i need it....it has the power and traction i need to tow something.....and it goes far better than a KIA in the snow...end of story...no hidden meaning. And regardless of the number of technicalities rovolving around Bush's victory (which it was a victory as i don't see Gore giving the state of the union) he is still our president regardless so that topic has become null and void not to mention tiresome. If we go to war with Iraq then so be it, i mean for more reasons than the obvious i don't think i'll hear anyone complaining of 99 cent gas when the time comes around.....no we'll be so focused on what we get out of the war that we are failing to see what we are losing from the war. LIVES OF SOLDIERS...I mean come on, all the oil in the world isn't worth the lives of one american soldier. i'd gladly give up my vehicle if it would prevent anyone being killed. But the truth is that cannot happen casualties in war are inevitable, and because we go to war does not necessarily mean that the lives of our men and women in the armed forces are expendable, but that our government which has supported us our entire lives believes in an imminent threat and action that needs to be taken to supress and eradicate that threat. The other part of the discussion i'd like to have a say in if i may....The argument of it not being feasible for citizens to rely solely on public transportation....Truth be told IT ISN'T....and thats no typical republican argument Kimphil you say you shouldn't have to help support an inefficient government that can't keep its roads clear...point taken...But should I have to have my taxes increased to put my government into a position to negotiate a mass transit system that is more diverse and covers more area of my town??? no i think not...and i'd like to ask you if you do own a car..and if the answer is yes then i ask you this...Whn you take a trip to the grocery store do you invite friends and neighbors along with you to lessen the amount of traffic on the road thereby making your vehicle efficient and pollution friendly all at the same time?? Sorry but i doubt you do thereby negating your argument on anyone's vehicle being efficient, including your own. Just my opinion please gimme some input

 

[megan620]

Kimphil,
Thanks for the debating advice, but no thanks. I'm not planning on changing my opinions to make stronger arguments. As many have said it's just one of the many perks of freedom of speech, something they don't have in Iraq under Saddam. Oh yeah, as for cities having better schools, well that is fantastic for those cities, but as a student, I really dont have the ability to up and change locale, nor do I want to. Keep the cities ghetto here in Cincinnati, not all of it is, but enough is. Everytime the city builds something nice or tries to help, the people they try to help, have to run and riot and ruin it. I am sick of seeing tax dollars go to help those who wont accept the help.
Megan
PS-I know it is not everyone in downtown Cincinnati who is like that, and its not even half, but the rioters speak loud enough for all, because no one else downtown speaks up against them, for fear of boycott! That is a just a situation of tension I'd rather personally avoid, but hey, thats just my 2 cents.