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War in Israel

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sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
What, exactly are we debating at this point in the thread? I think we might be losing sight of the forest for the thread drift.

My understanding is that everyone agrees Hamas is a malign actor that should be eliminated, and the disagreement is with Israel’s tactics in so doing.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
This is ironic, on multiple levels. Anyone who has supported the fight against ISIS knows it was a campaign of annihilation. It was not a traditional counter insurgency campaign with levels of measured restraint similiar to OEF or OIF. It was probably one of the most successful FID missions ever executed. Again this makes me question the veracity of your statements.

What did you do at CJTF-OIR? as a MH-60S dude? Elaborate on your “fighting time” against ISIS, and what exactly you did. Again, I only ask this because your comments are ill-informed and lack the nuance of a fires professional or aviator who has been placed in these situations.
This is hilarious.

The bit you're quoting from my post was a direct quote of SECDEF.. you know, the guy who was overall responsible for our fight against ISIS. So, not only have you shown your lack of reading comprehension, you've shown you have no idea wtf you're talking about.
 

IRfly

Registered User
None
In order to bring this back to the extremely fine line between what is lawful (within the context of armed conflict) and what is moral (within the context of right v. wrong) I’d like to add some history upon which most of this is based. Add to that we should be careful to separate the currently leading idea of “what is lawful” from the social media idea of what is “click worthy.” (I feel that Biden’s views are shifting because of a popularity contest, not genuine concern for one side or the other, and I would likely accuse a republican POTUS of the same).

Winston Churchill launched Operation Gomorrah, the bombing of the city of Hamburg on July 24, 1943. Five days later more than 50,000 civilians were dead. Two-and-a-half years later, when victory was practically guaranteed, the city of Dresden, crowded with refugees and of little strategic importance, was devastated by Allied bombers making it a symbol to the world of the cruelty of modern warfare. A month later, on the other side of the globe, the U.S. firebombing of Tokyo killed some 80,000 citizens. After the raid, U.S. Army General Curtis LeMay declared, “There are no innocent civilians.” Yet noncombatant immunity was the bedrock of the just war doctrine enshrined in the Geneva Conventions and Curtis LeMay did not go to jail.

The deaths were, without a doubt, indiscriminate, but that was countered with the idea that since the combatant state (Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and by the Cold War the Soviet Union) are totalitarian societies all of its citizens were, in effect, combatants. Interestingly, a similar argument is being used by all sides - recognized state and terrorist organization - in the “long war” of terrorism as each struggles to find a a justification (or morality) for killing of civilians to achieve war aims.

If you are looking for a great read I recommend Among the Dead Cities: The History and Moral Legacy of the WWII Bombings of Civilians in Germany and Japan, by A. C. Grayling. I don’t agree with Grayling as a whole, but he offers a lot to think about especially as we currently imagine “just war” theory. I am a ground combat veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan, and I’ll openly say that where I once sought to aid the cause of “proportional response” and “soft war” I now wonder if a demanding, cruel, and devastating “hard war” might not have been kinder and more moral in the long run. That is the question I think Israel is dealing with now.

Really I think George Orwell hit the nail on the head way in 1944 in an article titled “As I Please,” where he noted that there is “something very distasteful in accepting war as an instrument and at the same time wanting to dodge responsibility for its more obviously barbarous features.” Remember, at this time the Associated Press called the allied air campaign “terror bombing” because, well, it was. Orwell felt that limiting war (or trying too) was “sheer humbug” while he condemned those who “parrot cry” against “killing women and children” while interestingly noting that “It is probably better to kill a cross section of the population than to kill only the young men.” Sounds harsh, but it is worth considering if one is being honest in the very difficult debate.
Do you (all) believe, purely from a logical point of view, that people who are subjects of a totalitarian regime are more responsible for the actions of that regime than are the citizens of a elected government?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Do you (all) believe, purely from a logical point of view, that people who are subjects of a totalitarian regime are more responsible for the actions of that regime than are the citizens of a elected government?
Not more, or less responsible. They are simply members. When their government places them in danger they unfortunately suffer. Another way to look at this is to ask…”Are you more willing to engage (in combat) a true believer of a totalitarian regime than a conscripted soldier?” The conscript is no more responsible for his (or her) government than any civilian but they are compelled to serve. Unfortunately humanity has yet to find a way to engage just a government (or organization) in combat and not the people loosely associated with them.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Not more, or less responsible. They are simply members. When their government places them in danger they unfortunately suffer. Another way to look at this is to ask…”Are you more willing to engage (in combat) a true believer of a totalitarian regime than a conscripted soldier?” The conscript is no more responsible for his (or her) government than any civilian but they are compelled to serve. Unfortunately humanity has yet to find a way to engage just a government (or organization) in combat and not the people loosely associated with them.
Regarding your point earlier about how you are curious if a more devastating, cruel, "hard war" might have been better regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, how would that have worked? Because those were not conventional wars, and part of the reason the surge in 2007 succeeded was because the Iraqi peoples turned on the terrorists and sided with the U.S. And not being critical, just genuinely curious.
 
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Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
This is hilarious.

The bit you're quoting from my post was a direct quote of SECDEF.. you know, the guy who was overall responsible for our fight against ISIS. So, not only have you shown your lack of reading comprehension, you've shown you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

I’d hazard to guess because you never supported OEF or OIF, and don’t recognize the significant policy differences between the campaigns. It’s probably a stretch to say you “fought” or “led the campaign” against ISIS. My man, sitting at the CAOC watch floor on an IA at Al Udeid is not any of those things. I’m sorry that you confused watching ESTAT lines track across an ATO as “fighting.” You’re out of your element.

I think the general opinion here (including from your own community) is that you don’t have the experience to making or evaluating any of the claims on specific items related to the current Israel-Hamas conflict. I’ve demonstrated that numerous times. You’re not really worth anyone’s time anymore.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Yah im a little confused what that quote refers to as well. Some of us were flying over sinjar mt/mosul and Bagdad in 2014. With guns and bombs. Some of us were literally the first tactical aircraft (of any service) on station to respond to ISIS. Not that this is directly related to the topic at hand at all, but wat? I don't remember HSC-8 doing anything other than log runs then
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
I’d hazard to guess because you never supported OEF or OIF, and don’t recognize the significant policy differences between the campaigns. It’s probably a stretch to say you “fought” or “led the campaign” against ISIS. My man, sitting at the CAOC watch floor on an IA at Al Udeid is not any of those things. I’m sorry that you confused watching ESTAT lines track across an ATO as “fighting.” You’re out of your element.

I think the general opinion here (including from your own community) is that you don’t have the experience to making or evaluating any of the claims on specific items related to the current Israel-Hamas conflict. I’ve demonstrated that numerous times. You’re not really worth anyone’s time anymore.
Yah im a little confused what that quote refers to as well. Some of us were flying over sinjar mt/mosul and Bagdad in 2014. With guns and bombs. Some of us were literally the first tactical aircraft (of any service) on station to respond to ISIS. Not that this is directly related to the topic at hand at all, but wat? I don't remember HSC-8 doing anything other than log runs then
Once again, guys, those are not my words or claims. I posted a quote of SECDEFs speech from here: https://www.defense.gov/News/Speech...rks-by-secretary-of-defense-lloyd-j-austin-i/

You all get a 1 for reading comprehension. Quotation marks in my post indicate it was a quote.

To be absolutely clear, you are arguing with SECDEFs words, saying he doesn't know how his own strategy worked. I am not claiming to have led the fight against ISIS... SECDEF was referencing his own experience. You think you are quoting me, but you're quoting him. Understand? You don't know wtf you're talking about.

I did support OIF and OEF, btw, and I'm not sure where you get off assuming and blindly claiming I didn't. This is the type of BS that brought me to ignore you, Hotdog. You're incapable of keeping things civil.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Regarding your point earlier about how you are curious if a more devastating, cruel, "hard war" might have been better regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, how would that have worked? Because those were not conventional wars, and part of the reason the surge in 2007 succeeded was because the Iraqi peoples turned on the terrorists and sided with the U.S. And not being critical, just genuinely curious.
It is more of a mental exercise than anything else. I won’t claim it should have been the right move. In Afghanistan, and less so in Iraq, we broke a lot of stuff but had no real plan to replace it with anything. Our approach was…”You are free now! Act like it.” Well, what does that mean? What experience do they have? In Kabul, 2002, I argued that we should hand the Afghans a functional government - a president, a bicameral legislature (lower house elected, upper house made up of loya jirga), and a Supreme Court. The military, I said, should be tribal, then regional based kind of like a militia and then spun up to a shared full time, part time force. I argued the same in Iraq in 2003. In both cases the response was, “We can’t do that, what if it isn’t what they want?” My answer was always, “They didn’t want to be invaded, but here we are.” In a sense I preferred a short-lived colonization over a long lived era of troubled “self-discovery.” As for the surge, that was the end result of four years of suffering by the Iraqi people. They wanted peace and sided with the guys who could offer it.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Once again, guys, those are not my words or claims. I posted a quote of SECDEFs speech from here: https://www.defense.gov/News/Speech...rks-by-secretary-of-defense-lloyd-j-austin-i/
Mirage, professionals can debate whether the more restrained US strategy in Iraq / Afghanistan or the scorched-earth Israeli strategy is better at winning over the "hearts and minds" of people (or whether Israel even cares about this objective at this point... I'd contend that Netanyahu believes there's no changing anyone's mind at this point).

What isn't debatable - and why you've been piled on - is that Israel's military actions are in accordance with the international laws of armed conflict. You are digging your heels in the sand that they aren't, despite the fact that you have neither a) practical experience applying these laws or b) any kind of advanced education / training on the topic.

Netanyahu is being advised by lawyers who specialize in this stuff. Just like Biden.

The Biden administration's measured support of Israel is based on how Israel's strategy is being perceived by the international community ethically / morally, and not whether scholars think its legal. Biden's response is also tempered by the fact that our strategic objective has been, and continues to be, to limit this conflict to Israel / Palestine and prevent regional / global conflict... so he has to placate our Arab nation allies in the region.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
It is more of a mental exercise than anything else. I won’t claim it should have been the right move. In Afghanistan, and less so in Iraq, we broke a lot of stuff but had no real plan to replace it with anything. Our approach was…”You are free now! Act like it.”
Irt Iraq: I think that our approach to Japan vis a vis WWII could lend insight here - we let Emperor Hirohito keep power to keep the populace in line.

Granted, the President decided we were going to go for regime change, but that may have been the strategic blunder vice an occupation that kept Saddam around. "We'll leave you alone once you stop being an asshole about WMD inspections" might have been a shorter, less bloody occupation.

Afghanistan doesn't have a strong central government and so the idea that we were going to ever install one was DOA.
 

Random8145

Registered User
The Biden administration's measured support of Israel is based on how Israel's strategy is being perceived by the international community ethically / morally, and not whether scholars think its legal.
Is it proper to go by how the international community sees Israel regarding our support of Israel? I mean what if the international community is wrong?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Is it proper to go by how the international community sees Israel regarding our support of Israel? I mean what if the international community is wrong?
It doesn't matter. What matters to the President is that other countries don't enter the conflict, particularly states backed by Russia. He'll say / do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen. And by "whatever it takes" I mean by whatever some skeletor-looking DOD beltway insider who's been at his job for more than 30 years and thinks he's way more important than he actually is tells him to say.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
What isn't debatable - and why you've been piled on - is that Israel's military actions are in accordance with the international laws of armed conflict. You are digging your heels in the sand that they aren't, despite the fact that you have neither a) practical experience applying these laws or b) any kind of advanced education / training on the topic.
You can't just waive your hand and say it isn't debatable and make it so. Google "Israel war crimes" and you'll find there are a great many people who debate this. Israeli soldiers just murdered 3 unarmed hostages holding white flags... An obvious war crime, and more evidence of their dgaf attitude towards civilian deaths. POTUS literally said Israel is bombing indiscriminately, which is a war crime. But sure.. it's not debatable 🙄

As for your comments on my experience, you are wrong on both counts. I've flown around many times with live ordinance with people pointing guns at me, and I have a master's degree from NPS that included many courses on international law. I literally cannot fathom making such broad, disrespectful, and unprofessional assumptions about another officer. Completely unacceptable. You have no idea wtf you're talking about here, which is par for the course.

That all aside from the fact, again, that none of that has anything to do with my argument or it's reasoning, which nobody here seems able to challenge for more than a quick pot shot before running away when I ask questions. Instead, you're opting to attack me in childish and inappropriate ways. Sad.
 
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