I'll clarify - What the hell are those? Remember, I've been rocking nothing more than a TACAN and a radio for the past several years.
Isn't that why God invented VFR right after He invented aircraft?
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VRC-30 at March AFB
- Thread starter HeloBubba
- Start date
Isn't that why God invented VFR right after He invented aircraft?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Flown our ILS equipped aircraft a bunch now... Still haven't shot an ILS approach, but I've used the new comm suite that lets us play ipods over the ICS!
Remember, I've been rocking nothing more than a TACAN and a radio for the past several years.
Same "stuff" we were rockin' fifty years ago in the Scooter, 'cept TACAN was a newfangled godsend at that time....& BzB was the 'Bull jg'!
BzB
But if He wanted us to fly, He would have given us baggy Nomex skin.
Ah, but my autopilots in the Phrog knew how to fly the aircraft, use its 1950s-era avionics, and talk on the radios.
Seriously, though, it's kind of depressing knowing where I came from, and now I'm flying an orange-and-white trainer with an avionics suite capable of doing nearly any kind of approach on the books. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just about every podunk airport in the world has a GPS approach. Every DoD aircraft needs the capability to shoot these approaches. The alternative (bypassing a perfectly good field to keep scud-running, or pushing through the bad goo, in search of an airport with a TACAN or GCA...or, for more capable aircraft, any radio NAVAID...) has led, and will continue to lead, to bad days.
The cost of installing a COTS GPS to augment any mission systems we have? Well, if its expensive, it's only because our system of introducing equipment allows it to be. However, I'd be willing to bet that the true cost of installing an IFR-capable GPS is pennies on the dollar to the cost of replacing an aircraft and paying for the burials of its crew.
While I'm not arguing against having a certified GPS in the aircraft, has there been a documented mishap attributed to not having a GPS, ILS, VOR, NDB or other particular NAVAID in fleet aircraft? I haven't heard of one, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Until there is a mishap where a lack of a NAVAID is a contributing factor, neither the Navy nor Corps will spend the money to upgrade thie avionics in fleet birds.
Since GPS approaches won't work well to moving airfields (ships), then there is no reason to spend the money to equip aircraft with the technology to do those types of approaches.
The GPS the 60F/H has is enough to provide you SA during IFR and provide flight guidance during tactical flying. Do fleet birds REQUIRE more than this?
We typically had to transit to Norfolk to meet our ships (from Jax) or when we had to get the birds to Fallon (3 days of straight flying...) it would have been nice to have some more gucci gear but since there was never a mishap attributed to NAVAIDS, why would Big Navy or The Corps spend the money to upgrade our equipment?
I wouldn't consider a certified GPS as much of an upgrade, unless "upgrade" to the DoN means bringing our aircraft's navigational capabilities in line with mid-90s C172. I agree, though - it'll have to take mishaps with weak avionics suites as causal factors (where, in the AMB's eyes, everyone did everything correctly but just couldn't safely get to terra ferma) for any coin to be spent. (FWIW, I know of at least one mishap where it was documented that limited on-board NAVAIDS helped shaped the crew's (already poor) decision-making.)
No, GPS won't help aboard ship...but we're not always on ships, are we? No, I'm not going to plan a GPS approach to an airport when I'm doing a hard-hit raid, but when I'm doing a long-range PMC run to Shitcanistan International Airport because some PO3 met his PRD, it'd be nice to know that I can actually shoot an approach if it becomes necessary. Tactical GPS providing SA is one thing; certified GPS actually allowing you to navigate and safely get on deck when (not if) Murphy strikes is another.
As far as fleet birds requiring GPS, no, it's not required. However, neither is a lot of the equipment our birds wind up with.
No, GPS won't help aboard ship...but we're not always on ships, are we? No, I'm not going to plan a GPS approach to an airport when I'm doing a hard-hit raid, but when I'm doing a long-range PMC run to Shitcanistan International Airport because some PO3 met his PRD, it'd be nice to know that I can actually shoot an approach if it becomes necessary. Tactical GPS providing SA is one thing; certified GPS actually allowing you to navigate and safely get on deck when (not if) Murphy strikes is another.
As far as fleet birds requiring GPS, no, it's not required. However, neither is a lot of the equipment our birds wind up with.
This comes up routinely here (and elsewhere). Your argument (as you present it here, I know you're not against GPS) doesn't address the myriad of different requirements that DO require something other than a TACAN, some of which Kbay mentioned. Others:
-How about just being able to get to the gray boat you're supposed to be deploying on? I can't speak for flying up to Whidbey (though I'm guessing the same thing can happen), but getting up to Norfolk from FL can be a no-go with our current systems. I've had to fly up to Norfolk and file illegally. I weighed the weather and we were going to be fine (and were), but technically, there was no alternate to file to and was required by the weather conditions up there.
-Medevacs. Every deployment I've been on, we've done at least one Medevac (and/or HA/DR). At least three of the deployments, the pilots flew themselves into some "bad" weather right at the destination. Small boys don't have any real weather forecasting and had the helo had anything other than a ILS, they could have shot an approach and not had to sweat the mountains nearby to get the Medevac done.
-General IFR training. I just got an email from a buddy that was quoting the FAA saying they're doing away with ~50% of the VORs (note, that's VORs, not TACAN) by 2020. This isn't new news, as ADS-B is supposed to be online by then, as well (2017? Can't remember). The S/R have the systems already installed to meet this requirement (wicked accurate GPS, fixed-point waypoints, Mode S) but no operationally functional GPS approach system. The -53s have made it work, why can't we at the -60 level.
Navair needs to get off the stick. Like much of what we do in the Navy (and probably more so in the MC) is "make it work," so there may not be mishaps to quote, but lots of HAZREPs are being generated. Regardless, the lack of bad things doesn't negate the requirement.
Ugh... I totally get what you guys are saying....It's soo annoying not having autoland after shooting the ILS to a 11K' runway..
The thing needed by pilots who want a great flying job outside of the military.....What's a runway?