UAVs, not just an Air Force gig anymore

[bert]

But isn't "doing more with less" one of the primary fundamentals that the Marine Corps is built around?

As much as other services make fun of the Air Force for fighting "doing more with less", a lot of the scorn is born of simple jealousy. We wish our leadership would make the same fight, because the only logical end of "doing more with less" is doing everything with nothing. Instead of getting pissed at them for treating their people better than we treat ours, maybe we ought to think about imitating them on some things.


Well, except those stupid ascots. I guess bolo ties were already taken.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Where in the Marine Corps, we spend so little on QOL that time and time again it's the #1 reason first tour Marines list for getting out (I'll see if I can dig up the multiple MC Times articles referencing this).

Yes, doctrinally, "Mission Accomplishment" takes precedence over "Taking care of Marines," but if you don't take care of your Marines, you won't get anything accomplished.

We always dog the AF for 'building the golf course first then asking for runway money,' but I think it's jealousy. Good on 'em. If they can continuously pull it off, go for it.

/.02

The bottom line here is that the United States has a Marine Corps because the people want one. They don't need one. They want one. If we start becoming more expensive than that desire is worth, they'll get rid of us.

The same thing can't be said for the air force. We have to have an air force. We can't get along without them if for no other reason than their strat tankers and heavy airlift capabilities. Could somebody else do it eventually (commercial, navy, army)? Possibly. But at the moment, they have the government over a barrell. They can afford to be expensive.

That's how they get away with putting quality of life ahead of (or at least equal to) mission accomplishment.

I know this will generate a lot of "yut yut" references to Iwo Jima and Tun Tavern, but if you're objective enough to dismiss the emotions here, you'll see that I'm right.

 

[squeeze]

The bottom line here is that the United States has a Marine Corps because the people want one. They don't need one. They want one. If we start becoming more expensive than that desire is worth, they'll get rid of us.

The same thing can't be said for the air force. We have to have an air force. We can't get along without them if for no other reason than their strat tankers and heavy airlift capabilities. Could somebody else do it eventually (commercial, navy, army)? Possibly. But at the moment, they have the government over a barrell. They can afford to be expensive.

That's how they get away with putting quality of life ahead of (or at least equal to) mission accomplishment.

I know this will generate a lot of "yut yut" references to Iwo Jima and Tun Tavern, but if you're objective enough to dismiss the emotions here, you'll see that I'm right.

I agree... I'm not suggesting we go about things the same way. Doesn't mean we can't be a little jealous of their facilities and funding. Conversely though, I do believe we need to do a better job with base facilities and MWR/MCCS programs in order to preserve our retention/morale and thus our overall effectiveness.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I agree... I'm not suggesting we go about things the same way. Doesn't mean we can't be a little jealous of their facilities and funding. Conversely though, I do believe we need to do a better job with base facilities and MWR/MCCS programs in order to preserve our retention/morale and thus our overall effectiveness.

It's a zero sum game, Squeeze. Fixing that crap takes money. That money has to come from our budget.

I agree that the air force has nicer facilities and better quality of life. Whenever I get jealous of that, I just remind myself that I chose to join the Marine Corps. Nobody put a gun to my head. I could have joined the air force and taken advantage of their QOL.

But then I would have to wear an ascot and iron my flight suit.

I'll admit that MWR/MCCS could do a better job managing what money they have (which is more than you'd think). But they are a chronically failed beaurocracy that could be used as a sterling example on how NOT to run an organization.

If they optimized their processes, we could have much better services, but to approach air force standards, they still need a crap-ton more money. As it sits, giving them more money would just be shoveling it down the sewer.

 

[Swanee]

The big thing with Navy/MC MWR is that 90% of the programs now have to be self sustaining, this means pretty much everything except for the fitness centers. At the MWR Marina at the Norfolk Navy Base we don't get any funding outside of what we make when through rental fees, classes, etc...

Basically MWR has become a business on a base. Which is sad, as if the program can't make money to cover itself it gets cut. Yet they are supposed to be cheaper than those services in the local area.
(Example, the Horse Stables and Skeet Range over at Oceana, and has anyone been to the "Beach Front" over at Little Creek lately? Apparently it costs too much to run a snack shack and pay 2 lifeguards...)

 

[Flash]

But isn't "doing more with less" one of the primary fundamentals that the Marine Corps is built around?

Slightly off topic, but it burns me that the AF spends so much on QOL considerations, then says it doesn't have the resources for mission accomplishment.

(Note: That is not intended to be derogatory or disrespectful to the AF.)

Like I said before, long story short the USAF is right in this fight. Actually, I am surprised this is getting press, this has been an on-going fight for years, Huggy's Group Commander fought this regularly when he was stuck at the Pentagon (I worked with him). And it is fought with most assets, including Navy ones. And yes, the Navy pushes back too pretty hard when they are asked to do too much, ie: throw everything forward now no matter how hard it breaks the fleet.

And don't get me started on Marines and how they do some of their funding, I saw a few unethical and possibly illegal (I am not familiar with funding rules) thing when I was in Iwakuni with them. And it was not just them stealing bikes.

 

[Harrier Dude]

And don't get me started on Marines and how they do some of their funding, I saw a few unethical and possibly illegal (I am not familiar with funding rules) thing when I was in Iwakuni with them. And it was not just them stealing bikes.

Are you talking about blue/green dollar stuff? Or are you talking along the lines of how the navy used the Harrier program office as their personal piggy bank in the 90's?

 

[phrogdriver]

And don't get me started on Marines and how they do some of their funding, I saw a few unethical and possibly illegal (I am not familiar with funding rules) thing when I was in Iwakuni with them. And it was not just them stealing bikes.

In a command that is currently in the throes of a printer paper crisis ("essential printing" only) that will only be alleviated by the allocation of next qtr's servmart money, I can definitely say that if anyone in the Corps is getting more than his share of money, he really sucks at stealing.

 

[Flash]

Are you talking about blue/green dollar stuff? Or are you talking along the lines of how the navy used the Harrier program office as their personal piggy bank in the 90's?

No, not as serious as that.....but aren't the Marines that decided to forgo testing the new Harrier engines and lost a few because they were out of balance? Or did I hear that wrong? I am serious, honest question.

In a command that is currently in the throes of a printer paper crisis ("essential printing" only) that will only be alleviated by the allocation of next qtr's servmart money, I can definitely say that if anyone in the Corps is getting more than his share of money, he really sucks at stealing.

But it was a lot more serious than that, like taking money owed to people and using it as as the Marine slush fund.

 

[phrogdriver]

But it was a lot more serious than that, like taking money owed to people and using it as as the Marine slush fund.

You mean like travel claim money or something?

 

[Flash]

You mean like travel claim money or something?

Along those lines.......

 

[Harrier Dude]

.... aren't the Marines that decided to forgo testing the new Harrier engines and lost a few because they were out of balance? Or did I hear that wrong? I am serious, honest question.

Two seperate issues.

The F402RR-408 engine (i.e. "The Big Engine") was pressed into service ahead of the schedule of what i'm told that Rolls Royce wanted. There were some titanium fire issues that resulted that supposedly would have been caught/fixed with the testing that Rolls wanted to do. This was before my time (late 80's early 90's).

The turbine balance issue was in the 99-2001 time frame. It was primarily a result of a poor #3 bearing design and an even worse installation procedure at NADEP. The turbines were not properly balanced due to some technical geekery beyond my expertise having to do with a non-calibrated bench test. The out of balance situation worsened the #3 bearing issue and made them fail at an unacceptable rate. When that bearing fails, the engine shits itself, for lack of a better term. It's a single point failure.

As far as the funding buffoonery, I'll admit that we charge everything that we can even remotely tie to aviation under BLUE dollars. It might be a little shady, but we have supply dorks that keep the boss out of trouble. It's not major, byt things like copy paper (keep that in mind Phrog) and printer supplies can be ordered through the expediter on blue dollars.

 

[phrogdriver]

Two seperate issues.

. It's not major, byt things like copy paper (keep that in mind Phrog) and printer supplies can be ordered through the expediter on blue dollars.

Actually, not in our MAG. MALS orders blue dollar copy paper itself, then distributes 3 boxes/week to the expeditors. S-4 isn't allowed to buy itself on the blue budget.

 

[airwinger]

Being one of the paper pushers, I had to cut orders sending two majors a capt and a 1stLt to Yuma to pick two prowlers post WTI. The one way plane tickets alone came to $2400 but MAG was cool about it, however the major at MAG cut out the $50 rental car claiming "you can call MAWTS-1 and they'll drive you around"
2 things. First, I understand counting pennies but this(and the fight to stay in decent lodging) was just ludicrious in comparison to how we were getting shafted for plane tickets.
Second, can you imagine being the SDO at MAWTS-1 and having 4 clowns you've never met call you up and say you have to drive them around for a day?
I spent an entire friday afternoon trying to resolve that little issue.
After a few short years working for IBM and driving a beamer, living anywhere but havelock will be mighty hard to resist after the weekly a$$ pain of doing more with less.

 

[FLYTPAY]

The one way plane tickets alone came to $2400 but MAG was cool about it, however the major at MAG cut out the $50 rental car claiming "you can call MAWTS-1 and they'll drive you around"
2 things. First, I understand counting pennies but this(and the fight to stay in decent lodging) was just ludicrious in comparison to how we were getting shafted for plane tickets.
Second, can you imagine being the SDO at MAWTS-1 and having 4 clowns you've never met call you up and say you have to drive them around for a day?
I spent an entire friday afternoon trying to resolve that little issue.

In the S-3 community, the bean counter is notorious for screwing people. I went with a pilot to San Diego so he could get his NATOPS checker qual. I NFO'd the sims with him too. Our beancounter tried to "No Cost Order me". I called BS and got my money. (this was also the trip to SD in whcih my cruise jacket was stolen by some Pacific Beach bum:icon_rage) When I went to ASO school, the same beancounter tried to screw me again...something about my POV. I told her that unless I got what the gov't rightfully owed me, I would take taxis to breakfast, lunch, and dinner for an entire month and press the issue the whole way up.