The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike

[TurnandBurn55]

Oh, but they can. All day long. Big time ....

I think (?) we might be saying the same thing --- slightly differently --- and it's what I've been saying for >40 years of flying.

Given the assumption that you have a "decent" aircraft --- and we do --- and always have --- at least since @ 1942 --- it's ALWAYS the man, his training, his tactics, and how he employs them .... :icon_rast

News flash, huh???

Well hey, an A-4 can take on an F-16, right?

And yes, we are saying the same thing. There were lessons served from Cope India, but pretending that Su-30s were the only planes that pounded the Chair Force's F-15s is asinine. They got their asses kicked by planes which your might have flown against.... (albeit with sweet upgrades )

 

[eddie]

I'm not sure I get your logic. What an F(not-A)-22 will or won't do against an Su-30 is strictly supposition.

We have data to go on as to MiG-21-bis versus F-15s. It comes from the same excersize that the USAF uses to justify the "necessity" of the Raptor.

I say, wait a second... if the F-15 basic platform wasn't enough to guarantee success against an older platform (the MiG-21)... then how do we draw the conclusion that we need to throw and egregious amount of $$$ at a new platform?? Especially when that new platform-- the F(not A)-22 -- is being marketed for one reason only: to guarantee air dominance. It makes no sense. The plane-- in and of itself-- won't do jack if you don't admit there's other issues at hand.

I thought you were talking about something a little bit different than what I thought you were, but I don't think we were necessarily in disagreement. I get it now. Thanks.

 

[HeyJoe]

Apples and oranges

I understand what you are saying, but if the F-22 isn't a silver bullet for the Su-30, then an upgraded Mig-21 isn't always going to beat an F-15 (ever in a real-world engagement? I certainly don't know, that's why I ask...).

I don't think you can make a connection between the two. Like A4s attests, an underestimated adversary can make mincemeat of the high end solution if the wiley bogey comes into the fight seizing upon that situation. BTW, don't think the age of the MiG-21 puts it in a disadvantage. Like the A-4, it is relatively smaller in size yielding a distinct advantage in the WVR arena regardless of age. Secondly India and other nations have upgraded their MiG-21s. There is a Romanian MiG-21 upgrade (Lancer) that the Israelis have helped fashion into particularly nasty little beast with their Helmet Mounted Display (DASH) and ability to carry Python or Archer. So you wouldn't want to merge with this guy in any 4th generation US fighter without JHMCS and AIM-9X or it will have you for lunch.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

That's still standard Red Flag behavior. I know they have their own "approach" to strike ops, but they invariably send their "Sieve of Eagles" downrange at push time, then completely forget about HVAA and leakers. They always seem to find a way to blame everything on the AWACS crew in the debrief. It's actually quite comical to watch.

Brett

Isn't that called "being a single-seater"?

 

[A4sForever]

Isn't that called "being a single-seater"?

Puh-LEAAAASE .... no, it's called "PULL-YOUR=HEAD-OUT-OF-YOUR-ASS" , Air Force-style. Remember --- I was flying single-seat A-4s when I/we waxed 'em on a beautiful day so long, long ago in a far, far away place ... soooooooo, single-seat? I think not ...

*EDIT* deleted this paragraph so I wouldn't sound .... "ANGRY"

There is no "single-seat" disease out there.

You were being ... "jolly" and "sarcastic", yes ???

 

[nittany03]

I say, wait a second... if the F-15 basic platform wasn't enough to guarantee success against an older platform (the MiG-21)... then how do we draw the conclusion that we need to throw and egregious amount of $$$ at a new platform?? Especially when that new platform-- the F(not A)-22 -- is being marketed for one reason only: to guarantee air dominance. It makes no sense. The plane-- in and of itself-- won't do jack if you don't admit there's other issues at hand.

At the risk of answering a rhetorical question and jacking the thread . . . what my consulting profs in college called "throwing good money after bad." We spent ten years (or more, which IMO is an egregious amount of time) developing it, so better to get some in service than admit we built a white elephant and are wasting tax dollars better budgeted elsewhere.

 

[HeyJoe]

At the risk of answering a rhetorical question and jacking the thread . . . what my consulting profs in college called "throwing good money after bad." We spent ten years (or more, which IMO is an egregious amount of time) developing it, so better to get some in service than admit we built a white elephant and are wasting tax dollars better budgeted elsewhere.

Well, Army fessed up more than once....or were made to...and then cancelled Crusader self propelled artillery (way over weight) and then Comanche (way over stealthly).

 

[HeyJoe]

Back to originally scheduled thread

Hey,

Are there any reserve units flying the F 14, or has that platform been completely retired?

VF-31 is now the remaining US Navy squadron. They conducted their last change of command as a Tomcat squadron on Friday.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

VF-31 is now the remaining US Navy squadron. They conducted their last change of command as a Tomcat squadron on Friday.

And they're turning into a single-seat squadron as well...

Hey, A-4s, can I use your picture of Marlon Brando "The Horrors!"... you know in the spirit of being jovial and sarcastic?

 

[HeyJoe]

And they're turning into a single-seat squadron as well...

Well, S__ happens. Too bad there aren't enough F models around to allow 31 to continue its two seat legacy. Them Growler/Shocker guys are scarfing up the production line F models and turning them into G models. Eventually, when enough F models are available, there will be a E squadron turning into an F squadron so all 10 air wings will have a F model squadron (gotta have that two seat FAC (A) capability).

VF-31 is still part of the Ready carrier FRP commitment and 12 aircrews are back in CQ routine already after coming back from leave. They will take their Tomcats back to sea in July and won't start turning them in until after that commitment ends in September.

 

[A4sForever]

Hey, A-4s, can I use your picture of Marlon Brando "The Horrors!"... in the spirit of being jovial and sarcastic?

Absolutely ... no pwobwlem (sic -- that's how the Viets and Chinkamen pronounce it ) , G.I.

I'd be honored. But let's get it straight: it's Marlon Brando's picture of .... me :icon_rast ...

 

[bunk22]

Coming from a non-tactical guy, with regards to our guys vs whoever.......do we really present all our cards? Meaning, it's my understanding that when we go against, say the Indians and their Flankers (whatever else as well), we don't present our entire bag of tricks. We give 50% or so of what we can do. Our adversaries usually give 100% (or so I'm told). It looks really good for them to go back and say we beat the Americans. It's often an intell gathering device for us. At least that's what I learned from my fighter brethren after having serious discussions at any and all bars while in port

 

[Brett327]

Coming from a non-tactical guy, with regards to our guys vs whoever.......do we really present all our cards? Meaning, it's my understanding that when we go against, say the Indians and their Flankers (whatever else as well), we don't present our entire bag of tricks. We give 50% or so of what we can do. Our adversaries usually give 100% (or so I'm told). It looks really good for them to go back and say we beat the Americans. It's often an intell gathering device for us. At least that's what I learned from my fighter brethren after having serious discussions at any and all bars while in port

I doubt whether anyone completely shows their hand/tactics/capes. There are definitely some constraints on what I can do with my jet depending on who's playing.

Brett

 

[bunk22]

I doubt whether anyone completely shows their hand/tactics/capes. There are definitely some constraints on what I can do with my jet depending on who's playing.

Brett

Thus our Eagle drivers losing to Indian Flankers wassn't a real respresentation. It was an intel gathering event more than anything.

 

[Brett327]

Thus our Eagle drivers losing to Indian Flankers wassn't a real respresentation. It was an intel gathering event more than anything.

Apparently complete with a false sense of security/superiority instilled in our potential adversaries.

Brett