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The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike
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bunk22 said:
Without saying too much... negative. Just as an open-source example, they held back from using their Su-30MKIs (their prize aircraft).
The initial reaction from the Navy TACAIR types was "blah, stoopid Air Force playing hurt... we just didn't show our entire hand".
While this is true, extensive re-evaluation has shown that there were a LOT of lessons learned, some of which were really shocking. You can say that Cope India wasn't tactically representative, but within its own context, we learned a lot of stuff that's rather disturbing.
Nuff said.
heyjoe said:
Tom Cooper? Is this the book that claimed Iran had 100+ (159, if the amazon review is right) aerial kills in Iraq-Iran and essentially tries to rewrite history to paint the IIAF as the Luftwaffe of the Middle East? I'll pass, thanks.
Any officers are welcome to chime in, of course.
For both sides...
No doubt we learned good stuff... no small amount of which was about our own capabilities (or lack thereof).
No doubt we learned good stuff... no small amount of which was about our own capabilities (or lack thereof).
Riper Snifle said:Does Iran build it's own F-14's now, or are they still flying the same ones we sold them in the 1970's?? If they are the same F-14's we sold them it must be one heck of an upkeep program they got going!
Don't kid yourselves guys - the myth that departing American contractors during the days of the Shah disabled the inventory of phoenix missles and AWG-9 radar systems is just that - a myth.
Iran has a sizable, well maintained F-14 fleet complete with Phoenix and AWG-9 capabilities. The biggest hurdle lately is getting replacement batteries for the phoenix's - and China has reverse engineered appropriate batteries for them.
A lot of F-14 engine, structural, hydraulic, and avionics have been completely re-engineered - largely with Chinese help.
Our guys/gals flying CAP near the Iranian border are seeing AWG-9. The Iranians are not to be discounted. It's scary.
I wonder how they will train there next generation pilots on the Tomcat?
10 minutes well spent. Thanks, Joe.
I never flew the Tomcat --- but I fought it many times as an Adversary during training while I was still "in". Some of the video shots brought back good memories of another time, another place, other aircraft. Standing on your tail. Climbing up and up until you run out of airspeed .... rolling over the top of clouds ..... diving down the other side .... doin' it all again --- great memories.
But Tomcats?? There was that morining flying down to the Sand with @ 380 Marines from Lejeune on board in the weeks just before Desert Shield became Desert Storm. As we passed the Red Sea just prior to going feet dry over Saudi --- the sunrise popped up over the horizon --- coming up into the cockpit, into our faces, burning our tired eyes, making us squint. We're already beat ... backside of the body-clock and 15 hour's so far that day which would eventually end @ 30 hours on landing back @ Frankfurt.
I saw a shadow move and looked out to the side. There in the dim light I saw two F-14's snuggling up next to us -- the crews waving at us. I couldn't make out the squadron ID, but they were Navy F-14's and we knew the JFK and Saratoga were out there somewhere. They had silently joined up on us in the darkness somewhere over the Red Sea.
What a great wake-up call !!! And a comforting sense of security ... a real feeling of power and purpose ... halfway around the world from "home" ... there was the US Navy in the guise of those two Tomcats covering our backsides -- just in case.
With that kind of reach and presence, who could stop us ???
God Bless America ... yes???
I never flew the Tomcat --- but I fought it many times as an Adversary during training while I was still "in". Some of the video shots brought back good memories of another time, another place, other aircraft. Standing on your tail. Climbing up and up until you run out of airspeed .... rolling over the top of clouds ..... diving down the other side .... doin' it all again --- great memories.
But Tomcats?? There was that morining flying down to the Sand with @ 380 Marines from Lejeune on board in the weeks just before Desert Shield became Desert Storm. As we passed the Red Sea just prior to going feet dry over Saudi --- the sunrise popped up over the horizon --- coming up into the cockpit, into our faces, burning our tired eyes, making us squint. We're already beat ... backside of the body-clock and 15 hour's so far that day which would eventually end @ 30 hours on landing back @ Frankfurt.
I saw a shadow move and looked out to the side. There in the dim light I saw two F-14's snuggling up next to us -- the crews waving at us. I couldn't make out the squadron ID, but they were Navy F-14's and we knew the JFK and Saratoga were out there somewhere. They had silently joined up on us in the darkness somewhere over the Red Sea.
What a great wake-up call !!! And a comforting sense of security ... a real feeling of power and purpose ... halfway around the world from "home" ... there was the US Navy in the guise of those two Tomcats covering our backsides -- just in case.
With that kind of reach and presence, who could stop us ???
God Bless America ... yes???
Small world
LOL, that was us. I was on JFK in Red Sea alongside Sara...our private little "lake". America joined us as the whole thing kicked off and stayed awhile to get into the swing of things before heading over to Persian Gulf side. We had continuous Tomcat CAP 24/7 up in northern end of Red Sea watching mountains in case Iraqis tried to slip in on the Battle Force Red Sea ships with an Exocet. We also had a dedicated Air Force tanker overhead the ship(s) so gas was not a problem ever (just tanking gently to avoid the "mace"...no joke as we had a jet down for months after a sine wave pulse came back really hard and cracked a bulkhead). So, we did a lot of practice* intercepting the sky train of the civilian reserve fleet and C-141 and C-5s that were flying into Saudi continuously every few minutes...that's what you saw. We knew you wouldn't mind!!!
*Normally, we used TCS to ID aircraft as intercepting an airliner at altitude and speed takes precise intercept geometry control for a close pass or a lot of gas and you guys are smokin' while we are on ladder. USAF gave us all the gas we could take so we were extremely aggressive in executing intercepts, having some gas for ACM at end of CAP and doing low levels back to ship after end of commitment. We also would give the tankers a departing show in burner when requested...they typically asked for us to stay around for photos and move up to front cockpit and depart in style.
We were also intercepting airliners or whatever came into the Red Sea at night...those were really interesting, coming up underneath and moving straight up like an elevator so the crew (or passengers) don't see us (they tend to not want to see Tomcats so close and I mean close). Our Mark I Mod 0 flashlights weren't very powerful so we'd have to get up under tail and then move to side to get a fin flash/side number. Most airliners have nice spots illuminating the tail, which was helpful.
Now the Concorde was really hard to intercept and the weekly trip from UK to somewhere in mid East via Red Sea route would really get shoes spun up...they had "birds" on the rail the first time it came screaming gracefully overhead until a Tomcat was able to get its nose on it and ID it off TCS and personal camera telephoto lens. Those were the days indeed!!
A4sForever said:
LOL, that was us. I was on JFK in Red Sea alongside Sara...our private little "lake". America joined us as the whole thing kicked off and stayed awhile to get into the swing of things before heading over to Persian Gulf side. We had continuous Tomcat CAP 24/7 up in northern end of Red Sea watching mountains in case Iraqis tried to slip in on the Battle Force Red Sea ships with an Exocet. We also had a dedicated Air Force tanker overhead the ship(s) so gas was not a problem ever (just tanking gently to avoid the "mace"...no joke as we had a jet down for months after a sine wave pulse came back really hard and cracked a bulkhead). So, we did a lot of practice* intercepting the sky train of the civilian reserve fleet and C-141 and C-5s that were flying into Saudi continuously every few minutes...that's what you saw. We knew you wouldn't mind!!!
*Normally, we used TCS to ID aircraft as intercepting an airliner at altitude and speed takes precise intercept geometry control for a close pass or a lot of gas and you guys are smokin' while we are on ladder. USAF gave us all the gas we could take so we were extremely aggressive in executing intercepts, having some gas for ACM at end of CAP and doing low levels back to ship after end of commitment. We also would give the tankers a departing show in burner when requested...they typically asked for us to stay around for photos and move up to front cockpit and depart in style.
We were also intercepting airliners or whatever came into the Red Sea at night...those were really interesting, coming up underneath and moving straight up like an elevator so the crew (or passengers) don't see us (they tend to not want to see Tomcats so close and I mean close). Our Mark I Mod 0 flashlights weren't very powerful so we'd have to get up under tail and then move to side to get a fin flash/side number. Most airliners have nice spots illuminating the tail, which was helpful.
Now the Concorde was really hard to intercept and the weekly trip from UK to somewhere in mid East via Red Sea route would really get shoes spun up...they had "birds" on the rail the first time it came screaming gracefully overhead until a Tomcat was able to get its nose on it and ID it off TCS and personal camera telephoto lens. Those were the days indeed!!
Slammer2 said:
.......
There may be a few (many) times in your career in the fleet that you get to actually do what you train for.
.
Like a hot pad scramble TIC (troops in contact) mission. Taking a load of snakes and nape to support the mud marines (or sand marines, depending on your era/war)
.
It doesn't get much better than that
Small world, indeed. Thanks for covering our "6" !!!heyjoe said:
Personally --- I LOVED seeing the USN show up; whenever, wherever during my airline flying career. We had been briefed that we would be shadowed by USN or USAF fighters on the way in --- SOP when we carried troops and the world still thought the Republican Guard was 10 feet tall and their Air Force was a threat. The fear was that an Iraqi might "get loose" and shoot down a 747 full of GI's. And, of course, me.
But trust me, everyone was glad to see those Tomcats show up.
It happened to me a few times. Each trip the Marines or Army onboard were getting quieter and quieter as we got nearer to the Sand after the long night driving down there. Thoughts of home, personal mortality, the unknown --- all of that stuff. The shooting had not yet started on these early trips.
Since it was "reveille call" in any case --- I would always make a PA announcement and point out our fighter "escort". We flew CRAF trips with the cockpit door OPEN. The whole airplane would come alive with shouts of "OOOORAH!!" ... or "HOOOAH" if they were Army
.... no problem for THOSE passengers. LOTS of spirit !!! HOOOYAH for the Navy types ... :captain_1
I live in Las Vegas, Nevada and frequently drive to Idaho which means going through the desert. On one particular trip we were goin through a wide canyon just north of Alamo and out of nowhere a Tomcat flying a couple hundred feet off the ground flew over my truck. It sounded like a crack of thunder and there he was, and almost as fast as my brain registered what was happening he was out of sight. His wings were folded back and he was moving quite fast, probably the fastest moving object I had ever observed. After the incident my wife and I joked about a turbin wearing fighter violently beating his camel trying to get away from such an instant death. (you have to have the visualization). Anyway my question is; was this pilot bored and we were an easy target? (kind of like a lion batting a mouse). I can see the humor value in stalking unsuspecting travelers who think they are alone in the middle of the desert. My next question is what was he doing there? We were as far away from any naval base, water, or even moisture in the air as we could be, what would an navy f-14 be doing in Nevada?
Well, from the looks of it you were smack dab in the middle of the Nellis range, so you could expect to find low flying jets there. Even without the range, there are low level routes that criss cross all over the place in the west, especially through relatively uninhabited areas. I'd be lying if I were to tell you that I haven't buzzed unsuspecting cars (or jet skiers) while down low.kd7sgm said:
Brett
kd7sgm said:
What Brett said. There are low-level routes all over the country. Not unusual at all, especially where you were.