The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike

[Brett327]

Word has spread that Iran can't use the Phoenix missile with their Tomcats, outdated, expired, ? But they are trying to retrofit some I-Hawk SAMs and use those instead. If they are indeed launching that program, then it can probably be said that a few aircraft are operational, probably not flying a hell of alot, but still able to get in the air. I would doubt their pilots would know what to do after that, they probably haven't really trained hard in the past 25 years or so, it would most likely be a turkey shoot. F/A-18Fs, F-22s, and F-15s getting easy kills, maybe we would get an ace if we were to launch air strikes against Iran.

Suffice it to say that we know to a fairly high degree of certainty what their assets are, how they train, what their tactics are and how proficient they're likely to be - we just can't talk about it here.

Brett

 

[HeyJoe]

Iranian proficiency

Word has spread that Iran can't use the Phoenix missile with their Tomcats, outdated, expired, ? But they are trying to retrofit some I-Hawk SAMs and use those instead. If they are indeed launching that program, then it can probably be said that a few aircraft are operational, probably not flying a hell of alot, but still able to get in the air. I would doubt their pilots would know what to do after that, they probably haven't really trained hard in the past 25 years or so, it would most likely be a turkey shoot. F/A-18Fs, F-22s, and F-15s getting easy kills, maybe we would get an ace if we were to launch air strikes against Iran.

There is open source photography of the Iranian experiment to integrate a Hawk onto the shoulder station of the Tomcat, but that was years ago. They has 79 Tomcats delivered so have plenty of jets to use as hangar queens. They also have an aggressive black market program to get parts for all their aircraft and Tomcats going to museums have all useable parts striped to keep them from being stolen for Iranian use. TOmcats that are stricken are eithe rsent to AMARC or literally destroyed at Oceana (under SARDIP) to keep parts from ending up on eBay. There is a government task force working attempts to get Tomcat parts and they are very busy right now.

As to it being a turkey shoot over Iran....You NEVER want to go into "the game" thinking it's going to be a cake walk, you might just get surprised understimating your opponent...some of the Iranians are very experienced (according to open sources, some pilots have 8-9 kills against Iraqis). Over the skies of North Vietnam, pilots flying MiG-17 aircraft got the first kills of the war (against USAF F-105s) in 1965 and even though their fighter community was barely a year old, they gave the US of A a run for their money continuously*. Some of their pilots had never driven cars and were straight out of flight school. History has a way of repeating itself if you don't take prudent caution (ie don't ever understimate an opponent.....we lost a F-117 over Balkans during Kosovo ops that way). Don't even think the Iranians aren't getting ready to take us on.

*Navy instigated Topgun to work the issus and improved their exchange ratio to 12.5 to 1 afterwards, but NVAF had a lot more aces than US did at the end of the conflict (according to open sources).

 

[luckechance]

I believe one of the reasons the NVAF had more aces was that they kept their pilots on the line until the war ended or they were killed. The weakness of this strategy was demonstrated by the German's in WWII. They had a small number of excellent pilots who served for the entire war. As they were killed of the German air force became less effective. The US in contrast rotated its pilots home to train more pilots, which effectively led to a 'horde' of good pilots. There were certainly other reasons for the NVAF doing as well: GCI, getting to pick the fight, fighting over home turf, etc. In any event, I have to agree with heyjoe: planning around what you expect your enemy to do as opposed to what he is capable of doing is a recipie for disaster.

 

[A4sForever]

In aviation, you ALWAYS hope for the best but plan for the worst ... to do anything else would be ... foolish -- and perhaps fatal.

When the Shah shook my hand (and others, too -- another post) he volunteered the opinion that he "wished his pilots were as good as we were" (paraphrasing) .... and that was when "they" were on their game and still getting ... "better".

In civie street --- I trained many Iranian pilots for Iran Air and delivered some A/C to them. Some of the Iranians were former military, some had civilian backgrounds. All were smart, urbane, and relatively sophisticated. Uniformly, however --- they were below average as aviators on my grading scale. They COULD perform on occasion --- and sometimes thread the needle. But I have always been of the opinion that if you put 100 chimps together in a room with a stick, throttle, and leather flying helmet --- ONE of them would learn how to fly ....

The biggest problems with the Iranians arose when everything did not go according to plan -- i.e., their plan. When things didn't follow the checklist ... A, ... B, ... C, .... and so forth -- they were up for grabs.

Am I "worried" about Iranian pilots ??? "course I won't be flying against them .... but: No.

Then again, I don't want to be the guy that gets bagged by FltLt Mansour -- who is on his "game" on any given day when I'm not paying attention ....

Plan for the worst; hope for the best. And check your "6" .... :icon_rast

 

[HeyJoe]

It's my understanding that the close links between the Shah and his military led to a purge of the armed forces after the Islamic Revolution. The Shah rode the military to power, and it made sense that when he went down most of Iran's top brass went with him. IMHO, it's likely that many of the officers that remained flying saw the writing on the wall and joined the scores of educated/secular Iranians who left the country in the early 80's. Finally, a fully-trained aviator who was 28 in 1979 (when the Ayatollah took power) would be 55 right now, and perhaps past his days of pulling 6 G's in dogfights.

But then again.... never underestimate your enemy. It is true that, as an air power, the Iranians have shot down a hell of a lot more planes than we have in the past twenty years.

Some of best fighter pilots were thrown in jail, tortured, etc. until Iran started getting their arses kicked and they let them out to fly....check out ACIG.org or Tom Cooper's books on Iran-Iraq War or Iranian Tomcats in action. Some of them knew what to do and were not shy about going one v many.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Asymmetric warfare, boys and girls. For all the USAF's hysterical screaming about Su-30s (not without good reason), let's not forget that F-15s were getting bagged by MiG-21s as well in Cope India.

Saddam taught the world a lesson in the first Gulf War-- and that's that you're an idiot if you try to go toe-to-toe and bash heads with the US. Recent history shows that if you want to kill Americans, you try to sneak up and sucker-punch them.

 

[eddie]

let's not forget that F-15s were getting bagged by MiG-21s as well in Cope India.

Maybe this a question for the other thread, but weren't all radars OFF during those games and there was no E-2 or AWACS?

 

[HeyJoe]

If they were WVR setups, AEW wouldn't have been a factor. Here's a link to the 2004 Cope India, which involved F-15Cs: http://www.nxtbook.com/fx/books/raytheon/aviationweek-oct04/

Seems USAF pilots were interviewed admitting they got spanked. Thought there might have been a more recent episode with F-16s...anyone hear anything about that?

 

[Bevo16]

I am not the least bit worried about their F-14's, or any other strike aircraft. There is no way that they would stand a chance agaist our fighters.

It's the helo or small boat that comes out to pay a visit to the carrier with a nuke in the back seat that scares the hell out of me.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Seems USAF pilots were interviewed admitting they got spanked. Thought there might have been a more recent episode with F-16s...anyone hear anything about that?

Yeah, there was... but can't find a lot of good open-source material on the subject.

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=54604

A point on what I was mentioning in the other thread...

If F-15s can't stand up to MiG-21s, how did we come to the conclusion that the F(not A)-22 is the "silver bullet" to
the Sukhoi-30?

Tactics, training, missiles, sensors... a lot more than just the platform...

 

[A4sForever]

I....Seems USAF pilots were interviewed admitting they got spanked. Thought there might have been a more recent episode ...

... and there was yet a more "distant" episode wherein the F-15 "Pretty Boys" @ Fighter Weapons School (Nellis) got "spanked" on a continuing basis by burned out old Navy Reservists in their still older A-4's --- in the '80's. But the message here is: it NEVER ends ....

This was a classic case of overestimating one's own capabilities and disrespecting a wily, cunning adversary (Navy A-4's, in this case .... ) much to one's dismay. It happened repeatedly over several year's of training Dets and Red Flags while opposing these guys. You know --- the BEST the AF has to offer (?). At that point in time --- they -- the AF, flying some of the country's best fighter aircraft --- had learned NOTHING from the Vietnam experience. Thank God there are still some incompetent "Gomers" out there in the world to fly against ....

At least in my experience --- their CO would make them acknowledge their humiliation and disgrace, publicly, as he directed the losing (B)Eagle-drivers do a straight in approach to Nellis, hook down .... signifying .... "dragging their tail(s) behind them .... " . It made for some interesting debriefs ... lots of AF screaming (at each other), denial of responsibility and mutual support doctine(s), and hand-wringing.

Just the kind of attitude you want to go to war with .... I trust (hope?) it's gotten better.

 

[eddie]

If F-15s can't stand up to MiG-21s, how did we come to the conclusion that the F(not A)-22 is the "silver bullet" to the Sukhoi-30?

I understand what you are saying, but if the F-22 isn't a silver bullet for the Su-30, then an upgraded Mig-21 isn't always going to beat an F-15 (ever in a real-world engagement? I certainly don't know, that's why I ask...).

I guess my question is, how much worry should there be over Cope India? (Maybe there is less worry than I am percieving?)

 

[A4sForever]

...If F-15s can't stand up to MiG-21s...... a lot more than just the platform...

Oh, but they can. All day long. Big time ....

I think (?) we might be saying the same thing --- slightly differently --- and it's what I've been saying for >40 years of flying.

Given the assumption that you have a "decent" aircraft --- and we do --- and always have --- at least since @ 1942 --- it's ALWAYS the man, his training, his tactics, and how he employs them .... :icon_rast

News flash, huh???

 

[Brett327]

It made for some interesting debriefs ... lots of AF screaming (at each other), denial of responsibility and mutual support doctine(s), and hand-wringing.

Just the kind of attitude you want to go to war with .... I trust (hope?) it's gotten better.
[/B]

That's still standard Red Flag behavior. I know they have their own "approach" to strike ops, but they invariably send their "Sieve of Eagles" downrange at push time, then completely forget about HVAA and leakers. They always seem to find a way to blame everything on the AWACS crew in the debrief. It's actually quite comical to watch.

Brett

 

[TurnandBurn55]

I understand what you are saying, but if the F-22 isn't a silver bullet for the Su-30, then an upgraded Mig-21 isn't always going to beat an F-15 (ever in a real-world engagement? I certainly don't know, that's why I ask...).

I'm not sure I get your logic. What an F(not-A)-22 will or won't do against an Su-30 is strictly supposition.

We have data to go on as to MiG-21-bis versus F-15s. It comes from the same excersize that the USAF uses to justify the "necessity" of the Raptor.

I say, wait a second... if the F-15 basic platform wasn't enough to guarantee success against an older platform (the MiG-21)... then how do we draw the conclusion that we need to throw and egregious amount of $$$ at a new platform?? Especially when that new platform-- the F(not A)-22 -- is being marketed for one reason only: to guarantee air dominance. It makes no sense. The plane-- in and of itself-- won't do jack if you don't admit there's other issues at hand.