The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike

[chiplee]

Originally posted by Ryoukai
A question to the pilots...with this hubbub about the JSF having no gun, is that really that great an issue? I mean, in this age of very capable missiles how effective and important is a gun?

Edit:I've also wondered if having a second pair of eyes watching your back (RIO) is actually helpful or is the difference negligable.

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

my experience is limited. what I love about my job is the vastly varying degrees of "experience" so I'm happy to admit I'm green. But I am FRS complete and I do read my fair share on the matter so I'll share.

Yes I think the lack of a gun is a huge deal. In very general terms, I think that just as warplanes have moved away from in close dog fighting over the years because of technological advances, they will eventually move back to in close "knife fight in a phone booth" style fighting. The reason will be the same technology that made it go away. Advances in jamming technology will move fights closer and closer together in my opinion. Maybe that's just wishful thinking though.

as for the extra set of eyes: the only reference i can give you there is from some of the old simulator instructors in Kingsville. Guys who flew F-4s over Vietnam. The ones I talked to seemed to like to have someone to keep them honest, and one even mentioned the extra set of eyes specifically, for ACM, was very helpful. The VFC-12 guys might tell you differently. Most of them are BFM Gods who I can't imagine needing any help from anyone. Their SA is global and their energy management and just raw skill is pretty much muscle memory. There's one Commander over there who I fought on fighter det in Key West who might be the best fighter pilot in the world. His callsign is Race, I'll keep his name to myself, but watching his HUD tape was like watching a machine. If he meant to fly 35 ALPHA, he flew 35 ALPHA, not 34.5 or 35.5. It blew my mind, and I had a Fat Tuesdays conversation with the new guy over there who confirmed that no one beats Race, ever. Anyway, I digress, I think a two seat platform for a new guy learning to fight could be nice but eventually you won't need it, you hope.

 

[Dupe]

The Air Force will never get a fighter without a gun. The 366th Composite Wing got its nickname, "the Gunfighters," because they attached a gun pod to the F-4. The engineers can talk their talk about how taking the gun away would save weight and space. Still...Give 'er the Gun!

 

[NavyLonghorn]

Wasn't there huge hype about the Phantom not having a gun? I can't belive they would make the same mistake twice in such a short time period.

 

[jarhead]

"funny", no sh!t story I heard from an IP that occured a few years ago ...

the skipper for a particular MAG was out on the road with one of his two-seat Hornet squadrons. he was sending one of his pilots back to Base by himself (no WSO) ... the Pilot (less than 1000 hours) told the Skipper that felt "un-safe" flying back without a WSO ... the Skipper sh!t himself, and when they all returned back to Base, he switched all the Pilots from one of his the single seat squadrons with all the Pilots from that particular two seat squadron ...

honest truth, majority of the guys leaving the Hornet FRS want's single seat ... even with the extra eyes, etc, it's SOooo much better flying by yourself ...

semper fi

 

[Ryoukai]

^ But why is it so much "better" to fly solo?

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

 

[ben]

Glad to get that pilot perspective from HornetDrvr back a few posts... wish we had some more of that around here. Anyway, my stance is that if the Navy want's to put me in a jet powered fighter I will simply say "thank you" and consider myself one of the luckiest people on the planet. I'm hoping I can get there one day.

 

[chiplee]

Originally posted by Ryoukai
^ But why is it so much "better" to fly solo?

I really find it hard to believe that a T-bird guy said he was afraid to fly home alone. That doesn't make any sense at all. The 5th time you ever fly a Hornet you'll be alone, and you're already a decent instrument pilot by then so what could he possibly have been uncomfortable with considering his experience level? unbelievable.

well jarhead is right, that's what we all wanted. I guess in a way it's a pride thing. Just the idea of being a single seat guy seems to make you feel like you're the best of the best. Honestly we never felt that way in the RAG. The Tomcat guys tought us in Keywest that they thought we considered ourselves single seat Gods. Came as news to us in my class anyway. By giving a Navy guy Hornets out of advanced the Navy has decided that you can spend your whole flying career alone. There are people who think no new Marine Hornet pilot should ever go to a two seat squadron first because he could get lazy and start letting the WSO do stuff for him that he should be able to do himself. Either way we'll all end up flying both no matter which one we start with.

I guess it's also possible that after 2+ years of flying with an instructor in the back we just get tired of hearing that voice back there nit picking ever little thing we do. I mean there are RAG instructors who will correct you for setting Baro Altitude hold at 10 feet off altitude. I say if that's all you have to critique me on I'm doing ok, but I also learned that it's that kind of discipline and diligence that will keep you alive as a single seat guy. The Hornet RAG is always single seat training though. The Navy doesn't have any two seat Hornets so we all get the same training, Navy or Marine. You learn crew stuff in the fleet if you get T-birds. My buddies ahead of me who got Ds quickly learned that it's nothing like having an instructor in the back and it's not bad at all.

I think the main thing is just to know that you do it all without any help. Knowing that, and getting good at it is very very rewarding. The Hornet is so easy to fly it's like having a co-pilot anyway. But for some missions a WSO adds a whole lot to your probability of success. CAS comes to mind.

Oh and back on topic: I like the Hornet better, but having never flown in or fought a Tomcat I can't say much more. Obviously I'd be a little biased also. I'll say that the instructors at 106 all talked about being very happy when they got to fight Tomcats in the fleet. Something about guns tracking footage, I'm not sure.

HornetDrvr covered it better than I could, and covered it from experience rather than hearsay so I'll leave it at that. It's all consistent with what I've heard.

 

[Ryoukai]

Ah...thanks a lot, you guys have been really helpful. On an unrelated note, what is your banner doing telling me what I'm running?

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

 

[chiplee]

Originally posted by Ryoukai
On an unrelated note, what is your banner doing telling me what I'm running?

it's just a reminder that that information can be logged every time you go to any website. It's nothing special and no more intrusive than say Ebay, or MSN.com. They all log that info, as do millions of other sites. It's a little unnerving the first time you see it but it's what goes on everytime you browse the web. it's just that no one tells you. Hopefully next time you check out some kiddy porn you'll think twice,

kidding man, I'm kidding.

 

[Ryoukai]

Kiddy porn...damn him...how did he know? I mean, what?!

Now, another question which I'm sure you're all getting tired of. I'm watching through Top Gun again for the grillionth time and I was wondering if anybody knows whether or not the Fists of the Fleet (VFA-something or other)were ever a Tomcat squadron. I've looked through records of 'Cat squads and I can't find anything that would agree with the movie.

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

 

[vegita1220]

VFA? That automatically rules out cat squadrons man. 14 squadrons are all VFs. There's a site my bro linked to me once that had ALL Tomcat squadrons EVER. Look around and you may come across it..it's like Tomcat alley or somethang like that.

 

[kevin]

"Yes I think the lack of a gun is a huge deal. In very general terms, I think that just as warplanes have moved away from in close dog fighting over the years because of technological advances, they will eventually move back to in close "knife fight in a phone booth" style fighting. The reason will be the same technology that made it go away. Advances in jamming technology will move fights closer and closer together in my opinion. Maybe that's just wishful thinking though."

interesting point....you know what they say, what goes around comes around. being a traditionalist, i hope your right.
i was talking with my buddy who's a kc135 pilot in the air force last night and he said many feel the f35 wont be sent to them for a long time, and maybe never. apparently a lot of powers that be now dont think it's worth it. that said, he feels if the af doesnt get it first, unlikely the navy will get it either. dont know how valid this is, but i hope he's right. i dont like the thing (though id fly it in a heartbeat).

 

[Ryoukai]

Originally posted by vegita1220
VFA? That automatically rules out cat squadrons man. 14 squadrons are all VFs. There's a site my bro linked to me once that had ALL Tomcat squadrons EVER. Look around and you may come across it..it's like Tomcat alley or somethang like that.

They're currently a VFA squad. I know that the Tomcat squads are all VFs and that's why I asked. Hmm...oh well, it's Top Gun. haha

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

 

[Dave Shutter]

I was wondering if the "Fist..." point would come up. I have never known why they painted that on the Tomcat for the movie. They were an A-6 SQDN that switched to Hornets. The actors even wore the patches in a lot of scenes, ICEMAN I think?

 

[Ryoukai]

Yeah, Ice and Slider had them. It always sort of confused me.

Oh well, regardless of all it's technical flaws Top Gun is still one of the coolest movies in town.

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"