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The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

cmdro

New Member
None
Having recently completed both AF(T-6) and Navy(Advanced) training here is my view from a student's perspective.

The AF can be anal to a fault and the Navy can be relaxed to a fault. While you will hook a ride for something minor in the AF, I'm not sure what you would have to do to hook a ride in the Navy. Some of the things I did/saw happen, if I were the IP would have been instant hooks, but often times were minor debrief items.

In the AF you are a number, the schedule and Wx rule all, but you will finish on time and know that date before you even start. In the Navy your IPs will know and call you by your first name, the schedule is much more flexible (order of events, etc), and probably finish on time.

In the AF you will have long days in a flight room often time feeling like daycare, but will learn more from your fellow students or IPs not flying that go then you did in any class. You will also gain a sense of class pride, make some of the best friends you will ever have, truly care about how others in your class are doing even though you are competing against them, and fly up to 3 times a day. In the Navy you will only show up when you fly, often times having a day or more off between flights. You will mostly study alone, but whenever/wherever you want. You will also graduate with people you didn't even know were in your class.

In the AF your issued pubs will contain everything you are reasonably expect to know, and those pubs will be keep up to date, and verified page by page on checkrides. In the Navy the issued pubs will have most of the information you are expected to learn, however you will be quizzed on numbers/info out of pubs you don't have (FCF numbers for example). You will not have a pubs check until you go to turn them back into the bookstore, and probably find out there was a change posted that you never knew about.

In the AF you will do all your training at a select few towered airfields, often times never leaving the "training bubble" until going x/c. In the Navy you will land on just about every piece of concrete within range of base.

As to who produces the better product, that is impossible to tell. I think the AF sets and holds students to a higher standard, but the Navy does a better job of getting you outside the training bubble and gives a more real world experience. In my graduating class of 32 (9 AF), the top of the class was all AF, and none finished under a 50NSS. But that is only a token example, I'm sure there are classes where the AF students all finish at the bottom too.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
I know I'll catch some sh-- for this, but I am going to say that otto does have a semi-valid point. People do learn better when they are not put under severe stress. For some, being yelled at creates severe stress. For others, being yelled at creates just enough stress to get them in their optimal state of mind. Every student is different.

NOW, having said that, instructing in the civilian world is NOT the same as instructing in the military. If your instructing experience is limited to the civilian world, it is best to shutup and listen on this one. For the record, I have instructed in the Navy and civilian. Yelling at a student in the civilian world could lose you a paying student or a harsh admonishment from your chief flight instructor. You got to know where your bread is buttered. In the military world, yelling, or otherwise creating a sense of urgency and stress is VERY important in evaluating the level of learning a student has achieved. In the military, all students are going to get trained to a much higher level than an ERAU student. It takes a different approach for ths type of training.

The military does not need a pilot in the cockpit that will fold under the stress of someone yelling at them, much less someone who will buckle or turn into a zombie when a bonafide emergency occurs. When do you want to find out about a trait like that? In a controlled training environment or at the back of a boat (or LZ) at night?
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
The AF can be anal to a fault and the Navy can be relaxed to a fault. While you will hook a ride for something minor in the AF, I'm not sure what you would have to do to hook a ride in the Navy. Some of the things I did/saw happen, if I were the IP would have been instant hooks, but often times were minor debrief items.

My experience in both primary and advanced has been that people down flights for safety issues. There are some exceptions (like just being generally unprepared), but this is normally the case. In the old style system we have in advanced, a below is the way that IP's typically communicate deficiencies in procedures or airwork. Kind of goes back to the rules surrounding downs and mando PRB's I'd assume. Get more than 1 or 2 and your whole career in aviation becomes somewhat in jeapordy.

In the AF you will have long days in a flight room often time feeling like daycare, but will learn more from your fellow students or IPs not flying that go then you did in any class. You will also gain a sense of class pride, make some of the best friends you will ever have, truly care about how others in your class are doing even though you are competing against them, and fly up to 3 times a day. In the Navy you will only show up when you fly, often times having a day or more off between flights. You will mostly study alone, but whenever/wherever you want. You will also graduate with people you didn't even know were in your class.

Probably depends on where you are, but in the jet VT's you most certainly do spend lots of time with your class and study together. That said, most of the phase II flights are section or division hops where you are flying with your classmattes as well. On the other hand, we still don't have mando days, and can generally come and go as we want provided we aren't on the sked.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
That is roughly (within 20 hours) the time I left with from VT-86 in 2007. It seems like I have 60-70 hours of sim time, but maybe it just felt like that.

Good to know at least the quantity is consistent and I certainly think that the stick time in preflight is a great idea for NFO's and sorry to see it reduced. I still have trouble picturing the stand-up EP thing. In VT-10 when I was there it was just a bunch of guys sitting around studying until the IP came to get you to go to a briefing room.

What happens with this EP standup? An instructor rushes in (NO ONE Expects the Spanish inquisition style) and pick a student at random? What happens if you flub it and don't fly? They cancel your hop and call another stud at home or do folks come in on standby now?
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
What happens with this EP standup? An instructor rushes in (NO ONE Expects the Spanish inquisition style) and pick a student at random? What happens if you flub it and don't fly? They cancel your hop and call another stud at home or do folks come in on standby now?

Ha, surely you jest...come in from home? Be on standby at an air force base? Psssh...Pugs, you made my day with that joke.

Nope, stand up is an event in the morning (after formal brief...which is a whole new can of worms on the anal retentive scale, ever been bitched out for incorrect verbology on a time hack?) where a stud is picked by the flight Stan officer to work thru an EP situation of his choosing. Indications, Wx, and the flight situation are briefed. If there are no questions, the Stud "has the aircraft" which is where the EP evaluation begins. It's the studs job to meticulously detail every action he plans to take to bring the situation to a logical and safe conclusion. It would be more entertaining if it happened at random, monty python style, though.

As it is, if you fail it, you miss the next wave of flying for "remediation." Not feeling so hot for that check ride first period? Take a tactical EP fail and think about the error of your ways.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
Nope, stand up is an event in the morning (after formal brief...which is a whole new can of worms on the anal retentive scale, ever been bitched out for incorrect verbology on a time hack?) .

As it is, if you fail it, you miss the next wave of flying for "remediation." Not feeling so hot for that check ride first period? Take a tactical EP fail and think about the error of your ways.

After three Northern Watches, one Southern Watch, a Cope Thunder countless Red Flags, Green Flags , Black Flags and other joint exercises the anality of the USAF can never surprise me. I like folks working out the strategic vs tactical plan on the fail though. :)
 

torpedo0126

Member
Good to know at least the quantity is consistent and I certainly think that the stick time in preflight is a great idea for NFO's and sorry to see it reduced. I still have trouble picturing the stand-up EP thing. In VT-10 when I was there it was just a bunch of guys sitting around studying until the IP came to get you to go to a briefing room.

What happens with this EP standup? An instructor rushes in (NO ONE Expects the Spanish inquisition style) and pick a student at random? What happens if you flub it and don't fly? They cancel your hop and call another stud at home or do folks come in on standby now?

Ha, surely you jest...come in from home? Be on standby at an air force base? Psssh...Pugs, you made my day with that joke.

Nope, stand up is an event in the morning (after formal brief...which is a whole new can of worms on the anal retentive scale, ever been bitched out for incorrect verbology on a time hack?) where a stud is picked by the flight Stan officer to work thru an EP situation of his choosing. Indications, Wx, and the flight situation are briefed. If there are no questions, the Stud "has the aircraft" which is where the EP evaluation begins. It's the studs job to meticulously detail every action he plans to take to bring the situation to a logical and safe conclusion. It would be more entertaining if it happened at random, monty python style, though.

As it is, if you fail it, you miss the next wave of flying for "remediation." Not feeling so hot for that check ride first period? Take a tactical EP fail and think about the error of your ways.

Also just a few other points to tack on...the first 3 weeks are called "the 15 day program." Makes you think of something like Stalin's 3 year plan, right? The 15 day program is the huge cram fest where the IPs force a lot of information at you fast via stand-up, shotgun questions, EP discussions and pattern walks. Every friday you have an EPQ which is a 20 question stan test on the Dash 1 (NATOPS), SOPs and local area procedures. The big thing is you can fail all of this stuff and nothing is held against you except you need to study more. You are given the answers to every single standup EP during the 15 day program. People usually did not get sat down for not knowing how to handle the EP but over procedures or numbers in the Dash 1 that we just hadn't memorized yet.

Once the 15 day program ends, all that stuff starts to count against you if you fail. For maritime it doesn't really have an effect on your grade as long as you don't fail 3 stan events in a row (AF is a different matter). However, you no longer have answers to EPs. Now, students are not exactly chosen "at random." The IPs have a timeline to stick to so they can't have people sitting all the time during the flying periods. Almost always a student who was not flying first go would be stood up. The only time this is violated is if a student has to be stood up to meet the 30day requirement (stood up every 30 days) or was recently sat down (must be stood up again w/in 14days).

One other cool tidpit is that the IPs have a vested interest in finishing a maritime student as quickly as possible. Once the first Navy/USMC completes, their grade is set and ALL stan events cease. This is because since the maritime's grade is set it can no longer be used to grade against a curve for the rest of the AF students. However, stand-up may still occur but it is not for a grade and is usually just used for checkride prep. No graded stan events = tons less "queep."
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
What I love about you guys is that in one breath you're rail against the AF for having this outrageously difficult training process, but in the next breath you're saying that the AF is so lax that it's barely even a military organization.

C'mon dudes....I'm all for hating on the other service, but you can't have it both ways. Just pick one and run with it, because this is just making you look like a bunch of whiny bitches.
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Is the bitchfest here any different than the baseops.net "I went to Whiting and it took me so long to finish and I wasn't best friends with all the guys in my class"/"Navy is so gay"/"bo-at" etc etc etc.

No one is saying UPT is more "difficult," just comparitively full of the so-called "queep" opposed to the USN "big boy" program. You, me, and anyone with any sense (of reality and/or humor) knows that both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, yet somehow they work.

It's the internet. Who cares.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
What I love about you guys is that in one breath you're rail against the AF for having this outrageously difficult training process, but in the next breath you're saying that the AF is so lax that it's barely even a military organization.

C'mon dudes....I'm all for hating on the other service, but you can't have it both ways. Just pick one and run with it, because this is just making you look like a bunch of whiny bitches.

As far as being anal about stuff and planning for every little contingency in the mission the USAF certainly rules the roost. The Navy is a much more "we trained you and you'll know what to do" hands off attitude. As a former mission commander and strike lead, the missions I led on Northern Watch were just painful compared to a similar sized/complex all Navy mission.

When it comes to military discipline and opportunities for leadership as an officer outside the cockpit the USAF falls far short of the Navy. I'll bet an average first tour Navy Lt who has been a Div O has experienced more hands on leadership challenges than a typical USAF 0-5.

In summary. You suck ;)
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
Is the bitchfest here any different than the baseops.net "I went to Whiting and it took me so long to finish and I wasn't best friends with all the guys in my class"/"Navy is so gay"/"bo-at" etc etc etc.

Oh you're completely correct there. More than enough to go around for all players.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
(after formal brief...which is a whole new can of worms on the anal retentive scale, ever been bitched out for incorrect verbology on a time hack?)

The AF way is sounding more and more like a brief with Weapons School guys. "in slide 49, I noticed that you called it an 'm240'. The accepted nomenclature is M240. Make sure you capitalize that in the future."
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
Good article. I would like to point out that P-3s were mentioned specifically (as a positive even) and were also used in the same sentence as the phrase "tip of the spear." Just saying...
 
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