The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

[FlyBoyd]

I have been doing the IP thing for a while. I can count the number of times I have screamed at a student on two fingers. The first time I really almost died I lost my temper and screamed. I vowed to never scream again thinking it will never be worse than that. A few years later it got worse than that and I screamed again. The third hasn't happened yet and I probably won't see it coming anyways.

Now raising my voice is a whole other thing

Kind of reminds me of a Chris Rock bit...."I won't hit a woman but I'll shake the sh1t out of her."

I have had a few cry in the debrief. My usual response is "Really?...You are excused until you regain your composure." One student never came back. I found her in STUCON starting her DOR paperwork.

Now the one that cried in the brief...that was awkward. I hadn't even decided it was a Ready Room Unsat yet

 

[usmarinemike]

The third hasn't happened yet and I probably won't see it coming anyways.

That sounds like a challenge?

Now raising my voice is a whole other thing

If it's a professional instructor and you have a professional-ish student, raising or changing the tone of the voice is more than enough. Someone told me once that he viewed his job as an instructor to keep the student calm. Eh, I sort of view it as my job to keep the instructor calm and to keep him from asking leading or rhetorical questions.

 

[A4sForever]

....I sort of view it as my job to keep the instructor calm ....

That being the case, you and I would have got along just fine ...

 

[A4sForever]

....Now the one that cried in the brief......

That's a beautiful moment, man .... just beautiful.

You are a god to me. (small 'g')

 

[BACONATOR]

A4s... Here's the thing. You assume that screamers is a good thing and all us pansies curl up into a ball and quit flying when people are "mean" to us. Things may be different in a single-pilot environment, but in a multi-pilot airframe this is DETRIMENTAL to the crew concept. I dealt with a couple screamers in primary and advanced when I was just a "stud" and they were "IPs" (Rag was much better about acting as a "crew")

What happened when the IP screams for no reason other than frustration? I simply shut down. I continued to fly and do what I did... but I simply shut out the IP. Ultimately CRM ENDS at that point, and in hindsight, I should have called "knock it off" in a case or two of those flights...

It isn't effective teaching tool. For that silly mentality of "kids now are pussies. When I was a stud, I learned through screaming so that's how it should be NOW!" is just plain stupid. How do you progress, increase the efficacy of instruction, increase production and improve the quality of the product coming out of the TRACOM when you have this dumb "right of passage" mentality.

Screaming, overall, is NOT as effective as other methods of teaching. Doesn't mean we get "hurt" when we get yelled at, but the quality of instruction goes down the toilet and we simply don't learn as much or as well. A person who has to resort to screaming is obviously NOT a good instructor.

Now that being said, studs don't need "hand-holding" in the cockpit. A simple "Dude, that pattern was FUCKED, you need to do XYZ next time. You totaly Fucked the landing checklist, flared too early, stalled out and planted that bitch. Do it again!"

Or "you've fucked away the last 5 stalls. If you can't let the nose falls once you enter the stall and keep it from spinning, we're gonna have to go back and try another day"

those are NOT "nice" by any means, but at least they are instructive and directive on what your deficiency is and how to fix it.

Screaming accomplishes nothing except to shut the student out from subsequent effective instruction.

 

[HackerF15E]

What happened when the IP screams for no reason other than frustration? I simply shut down. I continued to fly and do what I did... but I simply shut out the IP. Ultimately CRM ENDS at that point

I think that this is precisely A-4's point.

That this "current generation"'s response to yelling is the problem. As in, if there was a little thicker skin and resilience to this sort of thing, the reaction wouldn't be to "shut down" or "shut out", the reaction would instead be to increase performance.

 

[a_m]

I think that this is precisely A-4's point.

That this "current generation"'s response to yelling is the problem. As in, if there was a little thicker skin and resilience to this sort of thing, the reaction wouldn't be to "shut down" or "shut out", the reaction would instead be to increase performance.

Ding Ding! We have a winner.

 

[busdriver]

Otto, you missed his point. No screaming is not an instructional technique. It's a function of that particular IP's comfort level. If he's yelling, he's probably very uncomfortable. It will happen because we are all human, including instructors. As a student or young co-pilot, you need to be able to filter out the human aspect. If things are too hot at that time, shut your mouth take what you are given, and if you need clarification re-attack once people have calmed down.

Finally: If you're talking about dumb questions, it's better to ask them and appear stupid then get smart, than to not ask them appear smart and actually be stupid. Stupid gets you dead, smart keeps you alive.

 

[Pugs]

So you mean that the 335th Fighter Squadron is any better? Are there 334 others?

Hey, I worked with those guys once! They were right next door to the 256th Tactical Towbar Squadron.

Sure, Navy flight training back in the day had it's low points but for the most part I thought it was the academic program and not the flight program. Once flight side it went pretty well and while we all had to deal with a screamer (mine was Marine Capt in T-2's in VT-10) there were few. I still don't get the morning standup EP thing. If you can't work an EP in the sim or in the plane or in the brief can't picture another opportunity is going to introduce some epiphany of a students shortfalls.

Do you guys not get enough flight/sim time these days that these other opportunities don't present themselves?

How many hours does an NFO student get these days anyway? IIRC I came out of VT-86 with about 170 with time in the T-34C/T-2C/T-47A/TA-4J/F and perhaps another 30 in the sims. I think that was pretty typical. How's that compare with today?

 

[a_m]

How many hours does an NFO student get these days anyway? IIRC I came out of VT-86 with about 170 with time in the T-34C/T-2C/T-47A/TA-4J/F and perhaps another 30 in the sims. I think that was pretty typical. How's that compare with today?

That is roughly (within 20 hours) the time I left with from VT-86 in 2007. It seems like I have 60-70 hours of sim time, but maybe it just felt like that.

 

[BACONATOR]

I think that this is precisely A-4's point.

That this "current generation"'s response to yelling is the problem. As in, if there was a little thicker skin and resilience to this sort of thing, the reaction wouldn't be to "shut down" or "shut out", the reaction would instead be to increase performance.

And while you and A4s are both obviously far more experienced than I, you both were fighter jocks flying single pilot aircraft. My point about CRM breakdown remains.

But referring back to the original point, I think the idea IS to ignore the yelling and continue to fly the aircraft... which is what I did. I had screaming flights/sims after which I got a decent debrief... so I think your point about moving beyond the yelling and performing is exactly what I did, but for multi-pilot aircraft... if I got yelled at by my HAC for seemingly pointless reasons... I know a HAC I would avoid flying with...

 

[zab1001]

A4s... Here's the thing. You assume that screamers is a good thing and all us pansies curl up into a ball and quit flying when people are "mean" to us. Things may be different in a single-pilot environment, but in a multi-pilot airframe this is DETRIMENTAL to the crew concept. I dealt with a couple screamers in primary and advanced when I was just a "stud" and they were "IPs" (Rag was much better about acting as a "crew").

Whew. Good thing you explained how yelling affects crew concept to veteran airline pilots and multi-crew military aviators.

 

[BACONATOR]

Whew. Good thing you explained how yelling affects crew concept to veteran airline pilots and multi-crew military aviators.

Doesn't matter who is arguing either side. They made their argument for screamers being an important part of the "tradition". I argue not. My opinion may mean shit, but it's still mine. Opinions are like.... well, you know.

 

[a_m]

Doesn't matter who is arguing either side. They made their argument for screamers being an important part of the "tradition". I argue not. My opinion may mean shit, but it's still mine. Opinions are like.... well, you know.

I didn't seem the argument being "for tradition".

 

[magnetfreezer]

And while you and A4s are both obviously far more experienced than I, you both were fighter jocks flying single pilot aircraft.

CRM is important for the fighter guys too (coordinating with your wingman, etc), plus Hacker flys the F-15E so several VT-86 instructors would disagree on the single-seat categorization.