• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

The next great AR question thread...

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Thoughts from a newer recreational AR shooter:

I built my lower from parts in an afternoon using AR-15.com and youtube videos. Very doable, and before that I'd handled a real AR15 only twice. It's extremely straight forward and the guide has all the operation checks to see if you did it right. Had my Devil Dog buddy look it over when I was done and they noticed nothing out of place. The upper I got from DPMS fully assembled.

For optics, recommend the EOTech holosights for zombie/man sized targets at mid range, with a flip up iron sight so back you up.
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
mmx1 answered most of your questions.....and I agree with him that the 14.5 in barrel with a pinned flash suppressor does seem slightly easier to point. It feels right. Maybe it's the small amount of saved weight out on the muzzle. Anyway it's what I have on my go to weapon. Besides it really does look better. Just remember that removing the front sight assembly later won't be a good option. You probably will never need to do that unless you have to remove it to change rails. Drop in rails can be changed without taking off the FSA but many others can't.

A 7in rail can get a bit crowded but you should be able to mount a Harris bipod and a vert grip with no problems. You wouldn't be able to mount the grip very far forward that way though. I'm guilty of using the mag well as a "vert grip" or if I mount a vert grip its usually pretty far back. That's a bad habit I developed before there even were vert grips! mmx1's got it right with a stubby grip way out front. That gives you better control of the muzzle. Also I'm not sure a bipod on a 14.5 or 16in carbine would be that useful anyway.

Are you sure you are looking at BCM's retail website? They have tons of stuff, lots of upper selections and mil spec parts. Their stuff is as good as can be purchased anywhere. When they are out of stock they restock fast and they have good customer service too. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

mmx1 shows the view thru an EoTech that has been mounted with a true co-witness to the iron sights. I like a lower 1/3rd mount which would have the front sight post in the lower 1/3rd of the glass. That's purely personal preference as both work equally well.

Damn I love that Aimpoint T-1/H-1. That's about as good as it gets in a 1x red dot. If they weren't so expensive I'd own more than one for sure.

I added some pics that might help you visualize different barrel configurations.....

M4 barrels. Top one is 14.5in and bottom is 16in

09.jpg


Pencil thin barrels. Top is 16in and bottom is 14.5in

08.jpg


The top one is a 16in mid lenght gas system (with a 9in rail) and the bottom is a 16in carbine length gas system

11.jpg
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
You might want to include A4's as well. Between us we could probably equip a Marine company. break break....

Gatordev if you aren't already you'll want to check out the AR15.com industry forums for Daniel Defense and Bravo Company. They are great sources of info for their products. Arfcom gets a well deserved rep for having more that it's share of wannabes and loudmouths but the industry forums and technical forums are pretty damn good. Manufactures like DD and BCM are very active there because of the site's huge membership.

Bravo Company http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=138 and
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

Daniel Defense http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=382
 

gaijin6423

Ask me about ninjas!
I think Rocketman is my new personal hero...

I may have missed some mention it previously, but rail length/style really depends on what you want to do with the rifle. There are plenty of manufacturers shoo make handguards that can have 1913 rails added into them in a modular fashion, so if you don't want a huge heavy rail system on your rifle, you still have the option to add accessories. If anyone's in the market for one, I've got a Magpul MOE set in FDE that you can have for shipping.

There is a school of thought around the tactical shooting world that a slightly longer rail system and barrel allows for the shooter to 'lock' the rifle into the shoulder by maintaining a slightly rotated grip near the front sight area. Larry Vickers has been one of the biggest proponents of this, and working with Daniel Defense to produce the extended rails that they offer. The technique works, but it takes significant practice to get used to, especially if you're used to doing things the old way.
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
If anyone's in the market for one, I've got a Magpul MOE set in FDE that you can have for shipping.

As you can tell by the pics I posted I like Magpul's MOE handguards. They are light, inexpensive and let me mount a light and vert grip in almost any position. There is some real innovative thinking going on in the black rifle world right now.
 

Tex_Hill

Airborne All the Way!!!
There is a school of thought around the tactical shooting world that a slightly longer rail system and barrel allows for the shooter to 'lock' the rifle into the shoulder by maintaining a slightly rotated grip near the front sight area. Larry Vickers has been one of the biggest proponents of this, and working with Daniel Defense to produce the extended rails that they offer. The technique works, but it takes significant practice to get used to, especially if you're used to doing things the old way.


You wouldn't happen to have a link to a site that demonstrates this technique would you?
 

gaijin6423

Ask me about ninjas!
Hmm... Let me see what I can dig up. If all else fails, I'd try over at m4carbine.net, in one of the training threads.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
The mid-length refers to the gas system. The gas is tapped at a different place in the barrel, so there's a carbine, mid-length, and full-length gas system based on how far down the port is placed. This also determines where the front sight is located if you used a standard fixed front sight since it's integrated with the gas block. That in turn also determines how long handguards/rails you have. The carbine length is designed for a 14.5" barrel (so i don't quite know why you'd want a mid-length 14.5 upper; it'd also look a little odd with longer handguards), the mid-length for a 16", and the full-length for 20".

All of the above makes sense and jives w/ what I've read about on forums, but... On both BCM and DD company sites, they list a "14.5 barrel" and a "14.5 mid length barrel," hence my confusion. Here's an example (at the top, there's two seperate categories...carbine and mid length):

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm

Nope, and it is slightly handier than the 16". If your goal is an M4 clone, by all means go with the 14.5"

So sounds like a 14.5" Carbine is the way to go though for what I'm trying to do (which is to have fun while not looking like a poser).

mmx1 answered most of your questions.....and I agree with him that the 14.5 in barrel with a pinned flash suppressor does seem slightly easier to point. It feels right. Maybe it's the small amount of saved weight out on the muzzle. Anyway it's what I have on my go to weapon. Besides it really does look better. Just remember that removing the front sight assembly later won't be a good option. You probably will never need to do that unless you have to remove it to change rails. Drop in rails can be changed without taking off the FSA but many others can't.

Which is why I'm looking at some of the BCM uppers that don't have the front site. Honestly, I think I'm starting to get bogged down in the details. For a first time rifle, would it matter if it did or didn't have permanent front sites? Yeah, I know I'd have to buy a front site to put on the rail.

A 7in rail can get a bit crowded but you should be able to mount a Harris bipod and a vert grip with no problems. You wouldn't be able to mount the grip very far forward that way though. I'm guilty of using the mag well as a "vert grip" or if I mount a vert grip its usually pretty far back. That's a bad habit I developed before there even were vert grips! mmx1's got it right with a stubby grip way out front. That gives you better control of the muzzle. Also I'm not sure a bipod on a 14.5 or 16in carbine would be that useful anyway.

The bipod idea was more as a way to cheaply bench the rifle. But I understand what you're saying regarding length and the need for a bipod. As for the rail, sounds like maybe a 9" rail is a good compromise? I'm still trying to figure out how to determine whether a rail (like DD's system) is modular or if the whole thing slides over the barrel. I know different makes and models do it differently, just trying to keep that straight and figure it out is a challenge.

Are you sure you are looking at BCM's retail website? They have tons of stuff, lots of upper selections and mil spec parts. Their stuff is as good as can be purchased anywhere. When they are out of stock they restock fast and they have good customer service too. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

Yup, that's the site, I think some of my confusion w/ the mid vs carbine vs light-weight thing (and how some have huge long rails...I don't think I want or need a 12" rail). Plus, the way I had it sorted, I was only seeing the 9 in stock, which probably doesn't help.



I added some pics that might help you visualize different barrel configurations.....

Gatordev if you aren't already you'll want to check out the AR15.com industry forums for Daniel Defense and Bravo Company. They are great sources of info for their products. Arfcom gets a well deserved rep for having more that it's share of wannabes and loudmouths but the industry forums and technical forums are pretty damn good. Manufactures like DD and BCM are very active there because of the site's huge membership.

Thanks for all the reference links and pics. That helps. I'll have to dig around AR15.com when I can. But I want it now! Don't worry, my OCD when it comes to purchases will make me want to continue to research.


I think Rocketman is my new personal hero...

I may have missed some mention it previously, but rail length/style really depends on what you want to do with the rifle. There are plenty of manufacturers shoo make handguards that can have 1913 rails added into them in a modular fashion, so if you don't want a huge heavy rail system on your rifle, you still have the option to add accessories. If anyone's in the market for one, I've got a Magpul MOE set in FDE that you can have for shipping.

Are you talking a grip or a stock (or a rail)?

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm sure I'm going to be peppering this thread with more questions, especially after next week when I finally get an inspection behind us.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
I was more partial to m4carbine.net; it's more heavily moderated and there's a better signal:noise ratio there.

The 14.5" mid-length and carbine barrel itself differ in where the gas port is drilled. The practical difference for you is that the carbine upper will fit a 7" rail, the mid-length will fit a 9", as you can see in rocketman's last photo. That's true of a 16" or 14.5" barrel.
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
Since one of the original questions was pointed at me, I'll just offer that that RRA 2 stage match trigger is the best on any of my rifles with the possible exception of my NM M1A...

Speaking of THAT rifle....If you have identified yourself as someone who is prone to Black Rifle disease, I have to warn you about a similar disorder. M-14 Syndrome. It is a much deeper, complex, and costly disorder that can take over many aspects of your life.

Since dropping about $1700 on the rifle, I have put another $900 into and optic/mount/rings, easily $1500 in ammo (most of which is still in the box because I got frustrated with the lack of accuracy in mil-surplus) and about a $2,000 investment in a reloading bench and supplies:

12292_383773800652_698645652_4340385_4063550_n.jpg


and a $240/year membership at a range.

The quest for accuracy is a disease...a sick, sick disease. Shooting an AR-15 well is going to a putt-putt course...anyone can do it. Accurizing an M-14, that's playing Pebble Beach in 20kt winds. The results can be a lot of fun (and tasty) though, and an M-14 has a LOT more uses than the AR platform (like spotlighting Axis deer in central Texas).

24746_365400500652_698645652_4079225_5194287_n.jpg
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
Which is why I'm looking at some of the BCM uppers that don't have the front site. Honestly, I think I'm starting to get bogged down in the details. For a first time rifle, would it matter if it did or didn't have permanent front sites? Yeah, I know I'd have to buy a front site to put on the rail.

The bipod idea was more as a way to cheaply bench the rifle. But I understand what you're saying regarding length and the need for a bipod. As for the rail, sounds like maybe a 9" rail is a good compromise? I'm still trying to figure out how to determine whether a rail (like DD's system) is modular or if the whole thing slides over the barrel. I know different makes and models do it differently, just trying to keep that straight and figure it out is a challenge.

Yup, that's the site, I think some of my confusion w/ the mid vs carbine vs light-weight thing (and how some have huge long rails...I don't think I want or need a 12" rail). Plus, the way I had it sorted, I was only seeing the 9 in stock, which probably doesn't help.

Thanks for all the reference links and pics. That helps. I'll have to dig around AR15.com when I can. But I want it now! Don't worry, my OCD when it comes to purchases will make me want to continue to research.

Are you talking a grip or a stock (or a rail)?

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm sure I'm going to be peppering this thread with more questions, especially after next week when I finally get an inspection behind us.

If I was buying my first black rifle and really wanted a 14.5 I would go with a carbine (not middie) with a fixed front sight assembly. I wouldn't worry about the rail because DD and several others make excellent drop in rails that you can install and remove without dicking around with the FSA. Some people get their panties in a bunch if the rail isn't free float but I contend that a free float rail is over kill when talking about accuracy in a carbine length weapon. The Marine Corps doesn't think drop in's are a problem as they issue a drop in Knight's Armaments KAC M4 RAS rail (which you can buy as well). I believe I'm correct in saying that the Army is currently issuing DD's version of a drop in.

The MOE mentioned above is a handguard with slots at various locations and at different angles so you can add lights, grips etc where you want without having to pay for an expensive and heavy full rail system.. They make a couple of MOE stocks as well. MOE stands for Magpul Original Equipment and refers to several items they make.

You're doing the right thing by doing the research. There is tons of info out there and it can be confusing but when in doubt pick the simplest solution. These things are like tinker toys. If you don't buy it the first time it can always be added later.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Thanks mmx and Rocketman for the carbine confusion and pointer. Simple was the whole goal initially and I'm straying away from that. And thanks for the report, Bevo. I'll go stock for now, but like Rocketman said, I can always add stuff later.

The MOE mentioned above is a handguard. They make a couple of MOE stocks as well. MOE stands for Magpul Original Equipment and refers to several items they make.

Definitely familiar w/ Magpul and their MOE line. I've been oggling your ACS, Rocketman. And Spike's even has it as an option on their assembled lower. Obviously more research is needed, but I think I'm pretty close to having a list.
 

Cron

Yankee Uniform Tango

Attachments

  • cqb.jpg
    cqb.jpg
    21.1 KB · Views: 119
  • sass.jpg
    sass.jpg
    52.1 KB · Views: 119

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
The sombitch is heavy enough as it is. And for the pricetag on those stocks, I can have a fully outfitted AR-15.
 
Top