The next great AR question thread...

[Gatordev]

Okay, so did a lot of research this weekend which makes me very dangerous with the amount of info I may have thought I've consumed. Please bear w/ the questions as I've been trying to assimilate what I can but you guys here have been great in the past threads. Especially this one: http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php/146098-M-16-and-M4-Civilian-Variants as well as Tex's thread on his new Spike's purchase.

So here are some questions in no particular order:

1. Barrel length...Lots of 16" models out there and I'm guessing a good balance between accuracy and compactness. But isn't the 14.5" barrel the more "technically" correct length? Does it matter? Maybe it matters more in places like CA. Thoughts?

1a. What's the difference between a "regular" barrel and a "light weight" barrel?

2. Lug or no lug? I don't ever really plan on affixing bayonets, so I'm thinking no lug. Again, no lug is more CA friendly, too, right? (you can see a trend to my questions which I'll get to in a bit).

3. On the DD uppers, they have different versions. The big difference I see is the rail system but am I missing something else? Both the V2 and the V3 seem to be CHF. Maybe the lining is different? Can't tell, but I may be missing something on the site.

4. Both Rocketman and Bevo have raved about RRA's trigger pull. Is it the lower assembly as a whole or is it just the trigger assembly that makes it "great?" For instance, Spike's lower looks like a great deal. Can I add a RRA lower parts kit to the Spike's lower and have the best of both worlds? Or should I just stick w/ one parts kit and lower from the same manufacture?

5. Spike's has both "LE" and "CHF" uppers. I thought the LE was CHF, so not quite sure what the difference is....just reread and I guess not, but both are MP tested and have the same alloy. Thoughts on one versus the other?

6. Parts needed...? I'm sure I'm missing something, but basically w/ the assembled uppers out there, it looks like one needs to buy:

-assembled upper (w/ or w/out rails/handguards)
-lower
-lower parts kit
-stock (really digging the Magpul stock, especially the ACS that Rocketman has)
-some sort of optic, probably starting w/ ironsights.
-mags

Lastly, I'm thinking building one of these would be a better experience than buying an assembled rifle just to learn more about the gun in the process. It appears to be a fairly straight forward evolution as long as you don't have to mess w/ assembling the upper. Am I out to lunch?

Weapon would be used on the range, not trying be a star in Modern Warfare 3 but I'm also not opposed to buying quality initially for something that will last a long time. California may or may not be in my future, so that's why I asked the CA specific questions.

I'm sure I'm missing lots of stuff to ask, but know I'm already asking lots to begin with. Appreciate any suggestions or answers.

 

[eas7888]

1. The actual M4 I carried in Iraq had a 14.5 inch barrel. As far as the shooting goes, unless you're doing competition level shooting, you probably won't notice the difference. I never have.

2. The lug will likely never be used, and I don't see you needing to do a bayonet charge any time soon. Then again, when the zombies rise up...I'll stop that stupid thought right here.

3. I'm not educated on their products, so I'll pass

4. You should be able to find any lower you like, and put the trigger assembly in it. The RRA is a wonderful, and I've also had a rifle with the Knights Armament two stage trigger installed. An often overlooked upgrade is the trigger, it can really help your shot groups if you find a trigger setup you like.

5. Hopefully this answers your questions

6. That's about it for your parts. You may want a handle/grip pod for your lower rail, if that's your thing. Also, I believe you're on the right track for starting with iron sights. I believe that iron sights are a great way to start with the weapon, and some people are completely satisfied with them.

- As far as building it yourself, it's a very straightforward process, and you'll find a ton of how-to videos on youtube.com if you get stuck, and there are an endless number of forums to help with AR issues.

-The California issues are rough for you. I dread the day that I move to California, as I will likely be a felony waiting to happen. The important things I can remember are:
1. Fixed Buttstock
2. Low Capacity Magazines (10 or less)
3. Restricted Calibers, though I believe you're safe there. There's a whole host of other regulations, and THIS should help you there.

 

[phrogpilot73]

16" would equate to an M-16A4, 14.5" would equate to an M-4.

 

[CAMike]

Answers from the California perspective:

1. In CA IF you have a 14.5" barrel you WILL also need to have at minimum a 1.6" "pinned or welded" compensator/break. 16" is the minimum length in CA- a 14.5" barrel with a threaded end is bad juju here. If SHTF and law enforcement has to release all the prisoners due to massive budget cuts -then out comes the hacksaw for my Spikes upper.

1a. Not sure.

2. Lug not in issue in CA UNLESS you have a detachable magazine. In CA you can have all of the "evil" features but the lower MUST require a tool "bullet button". (Recently in Tulare, a couple of MIL aspiring kids loosened their Prince 50's with a screw driver to make mag changes quicker and are now facing multiple felonies as they just happened to be shooting on the wrong piece of land and got reported to the local LE. So yes, LE is serious about the bullet buttons.)

3. Uninformed

4. IMO RRA, Spikes and Stag trigger parts kits are about identical in fit and finish. The RRA "Two" Stage trigger is definitely a step above the basic single stage generic $55 parts kit- thus twice the price.

5. Uninformed. I have only the LE upper from Spikes.

6. I'll have more than enough on my plate at this time. I now just acquire complete uppers and place them on lowers that I build. I do a very conservative 5 minute trigger job on my $55 trigger kits and others tell me that they are the best they've felt. Little do they know I use Stag, RRA and DPMS crappy single stages with the 5 minute trigger job.

At least you didn't ask about plinking in the California Condor Refuge area -Have fun!

 

[eas7888]

16" would equate to an M-16A4, 14.5" would equate to an M-4.

I was under the impression that the A1,2,4 all had the 20"barrel. Granted, I've only seen the A4 model in others' hands.

 

[mmx1]

1. 16" is a federal minimum barrel length on rifles; you can have a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached flash hider as CAMike mentioned. I'm of the school of thought that if you're going to have the length, you might as well get the additional pressure and fps on the bullet of the 1.5" of barrel.

1.a A lightweight barrel has more metal removed, and will heat up faster as a consequence. No first-hand experience on whether it's an issue for a range gun.

California has a military assault weapons permit that lets you bring in anything legal in your state of residency.
I couldn't find a state of California link so I'd suggest contacting the listed POC to verify.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36695
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaMilitaryAWP

 

[eas7888]

California has a military assault weapons permit that lets you have anything legal in your state of residency so long as it's legal in your state of residency.
I couldn't find a state of California link so I'd suggest contacting the listed POC to verify.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36695
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaMilitaryAWP

That's good to hear. I'll have to remember that, should I end up there.

 

[CAMike]

1. 16" is a federal minimum barrel length on rifles; you can have a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached flash hider as CAMike mentioned. I'm of the school of thought that if you're going to have the length, you might as well get the additional pressure and fps on the bullet of the 1.5" of barrel.

1.a A lightweight barrel has more metal removed, and will heat up faster as a consequence. No first-hand experience on whether it's an issue for a range gun.

California has a military assault weapons permit that lets you bring in anything legal in your state of residency.
I couldn't find a state of California link so I'd suggest contacting the listed POC to verify.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36695
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaMilitaryAWP

Good Info- keep in mind the 10 round capacity in CA would still be in effect even with the MIL paperwork. We CA residents don't EVER call out AR's assault weapons as they are not. They are simply fixed magazine rifles whose manufacturer and model # are not on the CA banned assault weapons list.

 

[Gatordev]

1. 16" is a federal minimum barrel length on rifles; you can have a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached flash hider as CAMike mentioned. I'm of the school of thought that if you're going to have the length, you might as well get the additional pressure and fps on the bullet of the 1.5" of barrel.

1.a A lightweight barrel has more metal removed, and will heat up faster as a consequence. No first-hand experience on whether it's an issue for a range gun.

California has a military assault weapons permit that lets you bring in anything legal in your state of residency.
I couldn't find a state of California link so I'd suggest contacting the listed POC to verify.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36695
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaMilitaryAWP

I had seen a previous thread regarding the "import" exception for active duty, but appreciate the refresher, and the 10 mag rule from CAMike.

As for one-stage and two-stage triggers (meant to ask that question earlier)... What's the actual difference? Is it like a "real" rifle, where you pull through the initial trigger pressure and then have a second trigger that's more sensitive? Or is it just a "smoother" one-click trigger?

Thanks for the replies, all. Expect more questions as I continue the inevitable OCD research.

 

[Rocketman]

.....looks like most of your questions have been answered but I'll add a few thoughts.

My first thought is that the firearms industry in general and the black rifle industry in particular is interested in selling lots of rifles and accessories. One way to do this is to continually come up with new, have to have, do-dads that most folks will never need. I've been down that road a long way and I'm back to keeping it simple. My advice for anyone buying a black rifle is to buy the best quality standard AR you can afford. Spend the money you would have spent on bling (rails, optics etc) on ammo/training. Go out and shoot the hell of it before you decide on which accessories to buy. For example I've determined that I don't need a $400.00 Larue rail just to mount a light. (I have two of them LOL)

1. I have several AR's in various configurations but only 2 have 14.5 in barrels. (both have pinned and welded flash suppressors) One of them I had done just because I was building a retro IDF Carbine and the shorter barrel made it look closer to the real thing. The other one is on my KISS shit hit the fan M4. Some people will tell you that the carbine length gas system was designed to work best with a 14.5 in barrel. They argue that a carbine length gas system on a 16 in barrel results in a weapon that is over gassed. This because of the extra dwell time the bullet spends in the barrel. Assuming you think this is a bad thing you can "fix it" by shooting a 14.5 in barrel, you can use a heavier buffer or you can buy a 16 in upper with a mid length gas system. (that compensates for the longer barrel length) An over gassed weapon is somewhat harder on the rifle and carries a bit more recoil than one that is properly gassed. Do I care enough that I change out all my AR buffers? Nope.

1a. My 2 favorite 5.56 AR's both have light weight (pencil thin) barrels. They are a dream to point and shoot. Significant noticeable weight savings way out front where it counts. They do heat up faster and I'm sure there is some accuracy loss but with the kind of shooting I do I don't care. If I only had one AR it would probably have a standard M4 barrel. My second one would come with a pencil thin barrel.

2. Bayo lug is just personal preference of course. I like my rifles with them because at one time it was a good way to piss off the anti gun crowd. Now it doesn't matter much unless you have a rifle with a mid length gas system. Then you can actually mount a bayo and really piss the Barbara Boxers of the world off.

3. DD has turned into one of those can't go wrong if you buy from companies. Looks like the differences you mentioned are around standard weight, light weight and light weight mid length barrel options. The barrel lining should be the same in them all (chrome lined) CHF or no, shouldn't matter.

4. RRA's 2 stage "national match" trigger is very nice out of the box. It's a true two stage trigger that has a little take up then it stiffens just before it breaks. A poor mans target trigger I guess. A good choice if you are prone to shoot for groups or just shooting in general. It's not the lower it's the parts kit (actually just the trigger assembly) so mix and match if you like. Some people will tell you that if you want the best reliability shoot a standard trigger. I've never had any problems with RRA. Then again I don't shoot 10,000 rounds a year or depend on each of my rifles to save my life. For what it's worth my shit the fan rifle uses a Colt lower parts kit. (with a standard Colt trigger in it) In general my tastes have evolved more toward a good single stage trigger because of the kind of shooting I do now. Today I don't pay much attention to taking up the slack before the break. All I care about are hits that score.

5. CHF means cold hammer forged and it just refers to the way the barrel is made. Most quality barrels were made that way years ago and they seemed to have made a comeback of sorts. It's the latest new "have to have" thing. I don't have an AR with a CHF barrel and I don't feel the need to go get one. Maybe it's worth it maybe not. See my opening comment. YMMV.

6. Parts list looks good. Building is fun and at one time was the best way to get exactly what you want. Now with companies like Daniel Defense out there, it's a bit easier to buy a complete rifle with most of what you want already assembled. Assuming you use a complete upper you can put a rifle together on your kitchen table in about an hour or so once you've done a few. Might take you two hours for your first one.

If you do decide to build I'd seriously consider uppers from DD, BCM and Spikes. My current favorite is BCM but DD and Spikes do very good things as well. The lower doesn't matter much as long as it's in spec. Pick one with a cool roll mark if you want. Spikes is good as are others. I kinda like Noveske lowers when I can find'em but they are pricey.

A 14.5 in barrel with a pinned and welded flash suppressor will make it very difficult if not impossible to remove the front sight assembly without tearing up the barrel. That means you will be limited in your future rail options.

Oh and you are a very sick man. You have developed an advanced case of BRD (black rifle disease) and there is no cure

 

[statesman]

California has a military assault weapons permit that lets you bring in anything legal in your state of residency.
I couldn't find a state of California link so I'd suggest contacting the listed POC to verify.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36695
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaMilitaryAWP

Do you know if that covers .50 BMG equipment as well or is that just for 'assault weapons'?

 

[Rocketman]

I was under the impression that the A1,2,4 all had the 20"barrel. Granted, I've only seen the A4 model in others' hands.

You are correct

 

[Gatordev]

1. I have several AR's in various configurations but only 2 have 14.5 in barrels. (both have pinned and welded flash suppressors) One of them I had done just because I was building a retro IDF Carbine and the shorter barrel made it look closer to the real thing. The other one is on my KISS shit hit the fan M4. Some people will tell you that the carbine length gas system was designed to work best with a 14.5 in barrel. They argue that a carbine length gas system on a 16 in barrel results in a weapon that is over gassed. This because of the extra dwell time the bullet spends in the barrel. Assuming you think this is a bad thing you can "fix it" by shooting a 14.5 in barrel, you can use a heavier buffer or you can buy a 16 in upper with a mid length gas system. (that compensates for the longer barrel length) An over gassed weapon is somewhat harder on the rifle and carries a bit more recoil than one that is properly gassed. Do I care enough that I change out all my AR buffers? Nope.

This kind of leads to my next set of questions. What's the difference between a 14.5" (or 16") barrel and a 14.5" (or 16") "mid length barrel." I understand what you're saying about how a mid length upper pertains to a 14.5 vs 16", but folks seem to sell a "regular" and mid length, regardless of barrel length. Just trying to figure out which is preferred, or if it matters.

That said, would I be a total Airsoft/Modern Warfare 2 douche if I went w/ a 14.5"? Part of the "fun" of this is to build a M4 (or nearly so, I know it's not exactly the same), which to me means a 14.5". As usual, Rocketman, you give a level-headed answer w/out pushing in one direction or another. Makes it hard for those of us learning. Hell, I think a MK18 (10.5, right?) would be great, but only because I've deployed w/ guys who had them and liked them, not because I have any specific need for them.

2. Bayo lug is just personal preference of course. I like my rifles with them because at one time it was a good way to piss off the anti gun crowd. Now it doesn't matter much unless you have a rifle with a mid length gas system.

You mentioned rails...I'm thinking nothing more than a 7" rail would be all I would "need." Enough that I could put a foregrip on there if desired (or it came w/ it). However, I could see the benefit of having a bipod on there, so is using a lug and a bipod a reasonable compromise or do lug-based bipods not have the sturdiness of a rail-based bipod?

3. DD has turned into one of those can't go wrong if you buy from companies. Looks like the differences you mentioned are around standard weight, light weight and light weight mid length barrel options. The barrel lining should be the same in them all (chrome lined) CHF or no, shouldn't matter.

DD seems to have more in stock but BCM seems to be cheaper, though not much available, at least on their website. A Spikes lower and a DD upper still seems cheaper than a DD complete rifle.

A 14.5 in barrel with a pinned and welded flash suppressor will make it very difficult if not impossible to remove the front sight assembly without tearing up the barrel. That means you will be limited in your future rail options.

Again, not thinking I need to kit it out w/ anything crazy on the rail. Enough that I can put a hand guard and maybe a bipod (see earlier question). Oh, and optics later on. Which brings on the next question... If I have a standard M-16 forward sight and a BUIS on the back of some sort, that doesn't preclude me putting on an optic later w/ the forward site, correct? I've read a bunch of reviews/internet postings about people doing that, just checking. If that's the case, not being able to mess w/ the forward site w/ a welded compensator doesn't seem like that big a deal. But I may be missing something.

Lastly, I've read both here and other sites that the Battle Comp is a neat piece of gear. If down the road, I wanted to change the stock comp, can a gunsmith "unweld" and unpin the stock comp on a 14.5? Not sure if that's a reason to go w/ the 16".

Lots of mental masturbation here. But w/ the feedback I'm getting, I'm sure the disease will kick in shortly.

 

[BigRed389]

Again, not thinking I need to kit it out w/ anything crazy on the rail. Enough that I can put a hand guard and maybe a bipod (see earlier question). Oh, and optics later on. Which brings on the next question... If I have a standard M-16 forward sight and a BUIS on the back of some sort, that doesn't preclude me putting on an optic later w/ the forward site, correct? I've read a bunch of reviews/internet postings about people doing that, just checking. If that's the case, not being able to mess w/ the forward site w/ a welded compensator doesn't seem like that big a deal. But I may be missing something.

Actually, they should line up for something like an Aimpoint...that's actually how we do our BZO: Irons first, then adjust the red dot to line up with the sights, then recheck.

For the ACOGs, they mount above the sights, so it's a non issue, but you lose the original irons for backup.

 

[mmx1]

This kind of leads to my next set of questions. What's the difference between a 14.5" (or 16") barrel and a 14.5" (or 16") "mid length barrel." I understand what you're saying about how a mid length upper pertains to a 14.5 vs 16", but folks seem to sell a "regular" and mid length, regardless of barrel length. Just trying to figure out which is preferred, or if it matters.

The mid-length refers to the gas system. The gas is tapped at a different place in the barrel, so there's a carbine, mid-length, and full-length gas system based on how far down the port is placed. This also determines where the front sight is located if you used a standard fixed front sight since it's integrated with the gas block. That in turn also determines how long handguards/rails you have. The carbine length is designed for a 14.5" barrel (so i don't quite know why you'd want a mid-length 14.5 upper; it'd also look a little odd with longer handguards), the mid-length for a 16", and the full-length for 20".

I have a mid-length 16" myself and like the additional handguard space (I have a stubby foregrip as far forward as i can get it) and the slightly longer sight radius.

That said, would I be a total Airsoft/Modern Warfare 2 douche if I went w/ a 14.5"? Part of the "fun" of this is to build a M4 (or nearly so, I know it's not exactly the same), which to me means a 14.5". As usual, Rocketman, you give a level-headed answer w/out pushing in one direction or another. Makes it hard for those of us learning. Hell, I think a MK18 (10.5, right?) would be great, but only because I've deployed w/ guys who had them and liked them, not because I have any specific need for them.

Nope, and it is slightly handier than the 16". If your goal is an M4 clone, by all means go with the 14.5"

Oh, and optics later on. Which brings on the next question... If I have a standard M-16 forward sight and a BUIS on the back of some sort, that doesn't preclude me putting on an optic later w/ the forward site, correct? I've read a bunch of reviews/internet postings about people doing that, just checking. If that's the case, not being able to mess w/ the forward site w/ a welded compensator doesn't seem like that big a deal. But I may be missing something.

With a 1x optic you will be able to see the front sight through the optic even without power and be able to line up a rear sight. For some of the smaller optics, Larue makes various heights so you can line up the sights through the middle or lower of the optic, per your preference. With a magnifying scope, the front sight will be out of focus.

Do you know if that covers .50 BMG equipment as well or is that just for 'assault weapons'?

No clue. I'd call the California DoJ contact but I suspect no.