The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090702/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

I think it's pretty doggone ridiculous to fine people for not having insurance. The comparison to auto insurance is silly since you are taking more of a risk if you don't have insurance in that they aren't going to fine you for not having it unless they catch you. Also one's health is their own personal problem in most cases and does not directly relate to someone else.

If people want to be sick let them be that way.


On another note. If you're going to post a news article in the future try to post something more than just a link. You contribute nothing to the site by just posting a link and not giving your opinion about the story. Any of us are capable of picking up headlines off our google page or whatever we use.

 

[Brett327]

I think it's pretty doggone ridiculous to fine people for not having insurance. The comparison to auto insurance is silly since you are taking more of a risk if you don't have insurance in that they aren't going to fine you for not having it unless they catch you. Also one's health is their own personal problem in most cases and does not directly relate to someone else.

If people want to be sick let them be that way.


On another note. If you're going to post a news article in the future try to post something more than just a link. You contribute nothing to the site by just posting a link and not giving your opinion about the story. Any of us are capable of picking up headlines off our google page or whatever we use.

While I don't agree with this tactic, the argument is that people without insurance are going to end up in the ER and cost the taxpayers more in the end, which is true. It's all well and good to let people be sick if they want, right up until the point where they lean on our healthcare system which is already strained to the breaking point in many areas.

Brett

 

[Flash]

I think it's pretty doggone ridiculous to fine people for not having insurance. The comparison to auto insurance is silly since you are taking more of a risk if you don't have insurance in that they aren't going to fine you for not having it unless they catch you. Also one's health is their own personal problem in most cases and does not directly relate to someone else.

If people want to be sick let them be that way.

Hospitals and healthcare workers are obligated, by law and ethics, to treat the sick and injured. If people don't have insurance or other means to pay, then the hospitals have to suck it up or get the government to pay, as Brett has astutely pointed out.

 

[Brett327]

what's to stop the program from ...

The provisions which are written into the bill. You can play thought experiments all day, but the real world doesn't exist on a slippery slope.

Brett

 

[Bevo16]

How are they going to fine the 12 million illegal immigrants who are not going to buy health insurance? This demographic has a hell of a lot more to do with the health care "crisis" than the 23-30 year old young professional who has opted not to buy insurance because they are healthy and do not expect to need it.

How about if someone (able bodied who has opted out) does not have insurance and they go to a hospital for service, they have to pay for that service. If they don't have the money, they make payments. If they don't make the payments, they have their wages garnished. If they dodge that, they have their assets seized.

How about if someone who is illegal in this country goes to a hospital, they get treated and then they get a one way ticket back to Mexico on their way out?

To harsh, I know. But we are fucking broke right now and we don't need to be spending money on people who have no right to even be here.

I really don't want to get into another definition argument, but the idea of forcing people to buy health insurance just does not sit well with me. Life, liberty, etc. "Liberty" means being able to do whatever the fuck you want (to a certain extent). Forcing people to spend their money on certain things or face fines is an infringement on personal liberty.

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

Hospitals and healthcare workers are obligated, by law and ethics, to treat the sick and injured. If people don't have insurance or other means to pay, then the hospitals have to suck it up or get the government to pay, as Brett has astutely pointed out.

I'm well aware that they absorb those costs. What makes anyone think that those same people are going to be able to afford the fines when they can't afford the insurance. From what I read in another article the fines were half of what the insurance would cost and it was more of an incentive to nudge people to buy insurance.

Some people who may be able to afford it may not be able to afford it because they have other more important financial obligations. I understand that the legislation has hardship exemptions but how far are those going to go and will they be abused. How much paperwork will be involved. If it's the government the hardship exemption will be a hardship in itself.

The hospitals aren't going to stop absorbing these costs either. There will still be those who don't pay the fines that will still get care.

This whole fining people sounds to me like their criminalizing those who make the choice to not have coverage.

It hits home with me because I lived the last 4 years of my life without any medical coverage. Not once did I have to go to the ER or a regular doctor and force the hospital to absorb the cost. I made the choice to not be covered. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe I'm just healthy.

I think this legislation in its entirety is fundamentally flawed and I really hope that it does not pass.

 

[Brett327]

...is an infringement on personal liberty.

So is the prohibition on marijuana and gay marriage, but our government - for better or worse - has chosen to intercede in these issues. For the record, I'm totally against any kind of national health care, but I understand the argument the left makes for it.

Brett

 

[Clux4]

Very, very, very few groups have raised any meaningful solution to this problem. The system is broke but it has to be fixed. Let them fine.

They should also peg the malpractice insurance. The president does not think so but that will greatly reduce health insurance cost.

Implement a VAT system that way everyone is paying tax, immigrants included. Your problem will be solved and we will not have to worry about them enjoying free benefits.

 

[SkywardET]

Cool, so $36 billion over 10 years means 36 million of the $1000 fines over 10 years, which means 1% of the population per year over ten years, perhaps?

Maybe it's time to invest in a health insurance company... Even if it's denominated in dollars, it seems like it might still preserve wealth fairly well.

 

[insanebikerboy]

They should also peg the malpractice insurance. The president does not think so but that will greatly reduce health insurance cost.

I'll admit I haven't followed the healthcare issue too closely. From listening to some people talk who have though, this seems to be the biggest factor driving costs up. I suppose it's an issue of society becoming more litigious than before.

 

[et1nuke]

If the fines are set at half the cost isn't it still cheaper to NOT buy insurance from the point of view of the uninsured? Also how are they going to collect all these fines?

 

[PropStop]

I'm a fan of the Thunderdome medical system.

TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!!!

 

[Spekkio]

Prior to entering the Navy, health insurance would've cost me $1k/month with a $5k deductable. I was 23, didn't smoke, and didn't have any illnesses that would cost the health insurance company boatloads of money.

Yea, this bill is stupid.

They should also peg the malpractice insurance. The president does not think so but that will greatly reduce health insurance cost.

Malpractice is only a piece of the puzzle. Firstly, taking away people's right to seek reparations for someone's negligance is not the way to go about "fixing" healthcare. You'll just end up with more incompetent doctors who are immune to penalty. Secondly, healthcare costs are rising because we as a nation are expecting a lot more out of it than we did 20-30 years ago. One of the biggest costs is paying for treatment for patients who are terminally or likely to be terminally ill. Then add in that we are expecting doctors to treat more and more things with prescription medicine, such as obesity and high colesterol, when the solution 20 years ago was to exercise more. Health insurance companies have to make up these costs somewhere, so everyone's insurance goes up.

 

[PropAddict]

Let's just say screw it and put the whole country on Tricare. I mean, it's always been fine for me.

 

[picklesuit]

I think the insurance companies did a great job working on this bill. I mean it should really be "Government, brought to you by Blue Cross"

Health insurance is basically a large gamble on your life. They are betting that they will get you, in the long run, to pay them more than they have to pay the hospital/doctors. That difference is their profit. They need healthy people to make that profit. People who pay all year for their health insurance and never use it (people like ME) That is why this bill has all sorts of exemptions for poor people. They do not take adequate care of themselves, and are inherently more risky, due to an increase in obesity, tobacco use, and living in areas with a worse quality of life; and a decrease in general hygenics, dental care, knowledge of healthy lifestyles. The insurance company does not want these people.

This bill is another way for the government to be coopted into FORCING those who don't really NEED health insurance to continue to prop up the insurance industry. Those healthy, wealthy, usually white, Americans who believe they have the right to choose what health care they receive and are willing to pay for it.

I, for one, went off of health insurance for a couple of years in college. When I actually decided to use the health system, I paid for it out of pocket. It saved me from making unnecessary trips to the doctor for stupid shit like a viral head cold (take two of these, hydrate, and rest...no shit, I'll keep my 75 bucks, thanks) and only going when I absolutely needed a doctor (hey doc, that bone fragment has worked its way out of the skin, can you grab that and pull it out)

Those were the same two years I drove without car insurance. I was too fucking poor to pay for it; and was willing to accept the risk/responsibility of paying for my own mistakes, or a ticket if I was caught. Guess what? I drove slower, I didn't tear ass around town, like I do now, and I actually worried about getting pulled over. 2 years...no tickets, no accidents, no road rage/asshole driving...and I saved 1600 dollars that would never recoup from the insurance company had I done the same and paid them for their piece of paper. Scared and poor, it's a great thing Martha!

Insurance is bullshit. Insurance has been responsible for a major portion of the rise in health care costs. The other part of that is frivolous lawsuits, but I'll save that rant for another day. It is a burden on the economy, and a burden on the health care system. We want our doctors to be doctors, not fucking paper-jockeys.

What it should boil down to is your willingness to take responsibility for your own life. If you want to save money on healthcare, live healthier. Don't get fat, don't smoke, exercise, and go to a doctor when it is NECESSARY! If you want to continue to fork out thousands of dollars every year to pay for the off-chance you, or your kids, might be the poor souks who gets cancer or to pay for your visit to the doctor because you have the sniffles, so be it, pay for your insurance, and get what you can out of it.

If you are not willing to pay for your own healthcare, you should not be entitled to it. Nobody is entitled to life, you earn it by scrapping and working your ass off every day to keep it. I should not have to pay for you if you are too fucking stupid, lazy, or indifferent to care for yourself...

Pickle