The CSOs are coming, the CSOs are coming...to PCola no less!

[pittflyer]

Picture the glass now only a 1/4 empty, and that will eventually mean less fun and more 'rules.' .

I guess that would be 3/4 empty...It wouldn't fill up again now would it? Too much beer this weekend...Sorry. I have a case of the Mondays.

 

[Gator NFO]

You have been around the AF too much. That would be a CSO barracks, or BOQ. If they do put up their own money to build housing in Pcola the Navy should retain naming rights, just like on the big stadiums and arenas. That way we can be assured it will be a proper military facility, a barracks, or BOQ.

I agree, I have been around the AF too much, and I've wasted too many brain cells on all things AF.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I have a case of the Mondays.

No. Shit no. I belive you would get your ass kicked saying something like that.

 

[Gator NFO]

The cost of moving the Air Force Nav school from San Antonio to P'cola has sky rocketed and some DoD folks were in town recently asking the AF WTF? This move was supposed to be saving the govt money in the long run. Honestly, I believe most of the AF folks I work with would rather just leave things as they are than have to play on the Navy's turf in P'cola.

 

[Uncle Fester]

That article really sort of puts the AF mindset towards their Navs in black-and-white. There are Pilots and then there are Pilot's Little Helpers. To read that article, you get the impression that Navs are only suitable for certain jobs, and the further you climb the ladder, the fewer jobs there are. I mean, yeah, some squadrons don't have Navs, so they're not going to command them, but that doesn't mean they are therefore unsuitable for any higher commands. By that same logic, NFOs should not be eligible to be CAGs, CVN COs, Strike Group commanders, etc. Somehow we make it work. You climb the ladder inside your community, but once you're post Squadron command, it's all-in.

I dunno, the AF caste system just really amazes me. I'm sure some of our AF bretheren will jump in here to tell me I'm wrong, and, seriously, please tell me if I am. It's just somehow I can't ever see them making a Nav the Chief of Staff or anything, but an NFO as CNO? Absolutely no reason why not. There's lots of folks with two anchors and stars out there now.

And BTW, Bullet, resize your damn avatar.

 

[fudog50]

In sticking with the original post???

CSO is the Combat Systems Officer on a carrier. He/She is normally a well seasoned CDR, often LDO.

Are you saying they are getting trained at Pensacola now? I'll have to ask the CSO on 72 about that....

Now if you are talking TAO's, (which sounds like the equivelant to the AF CSO) and JO's, I could see that, certainly NOT Navy CSO's.

 

[HAL Pilot]

In sticking with the original post???

CSO is the Combat Systems Officer on a carrier. He/She is normally a well seasoned CDR, often LDO.

Or Chief Staff Officer or Command Services Officer or......

There are many different types of CSOs in the Navy.

 

[HackerF15E]

In sticking with the original post???

CSO is the Combat Systems Officer on a carrier. He/She is normally a well seasoned CDR, often LDO.

Are you saying they are getting trained at Pensacola now?

The "CSO" is the AF's new combination NAV-EWO-WSO. That's the training they're talking about.

That article really sort of puts the AF mindset towards their Navs in black-and-white. There are Pilots and then there are Pilot's Little Helpers.

<SNIP>

I dunno, the AF caste system just really amazes me. I'm sure some of our AF bretheren will jump in here to tell me I'm wrong, and, seriously, please tell me if I am. It's just somehow I can't ever see them making a Nav the Chief of Staff or anything, but an NFO as CNO? Absolutely no reason why not. There's lots of folks with two anchors and stars out there now.

I've had plenty of WSO Squadron Commanders, Group Commanders, and Wing Commanders...and they've gone on to get plenty of stars and the like.

Interesting that you throw on the AF that there's a 'caste system'. From everything I've seen, the Navy treats their 'FOs like more of a 2nd class citizen than in the AF...at least in the fighter business. I had a Tomcat driver from Oceana who could not believe that I was letting my WSO draw the lines and debrief BFM...couldn't grasp that my back seater would possibly be able to understand what the pilots were doing and reconstruct it after the fact.

In the F-15E community, the line is really blurred between the front seaters and the back seaters. I have to actually look at a dude's wings half the time to remember which one he is. If there was truly a caste system as you say, then the 'B team' would be well known to the pilots.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I've had plenty of WSO Squadron Commanders, Group Commanders, and Wing Commanders...and they've gone on to get plenty of stars and the like.

Interesting that you throw on the AF that there's a 'caste system'. From everything I've seen, the Navy treats their 'FOs like more of a 2nd class citizen than in the AF...at least in the fighter business. I had a Tomcat driver from Oceana who could not believe that I was letting my WSO draw the lines and debrief BFM...couldn't grasp that my back seater would possibly be able to understand what the pilots were doing and reconstruct it after the fact.

In the F-15E community, the line is really blurred between the front seaters and the back seaters. I have to actually look at a dude's wings half the time to remember which one he is. If there was truly a caste system as you say, then the 'B team' would be well known to the pilots.

That's what I was curious about - I've had AF guys tell me that same thing you did, and others who not only told me that there is a caste system, but could tell me precisely how it breaks out (down to Mud Hen WSOs are "higher" than B-1 Navs, etc nonsense ad neauseum). I'd prefer to think the latter type are just tools, which is what it sounds like you're saying.

I'm not sure what Tomcat guy you talked to - if anything, the VF/VFA guys have the same sort of blurred line you mentioned in the F-15E community. Been debriefed on strikes, AICs, etc, I controlled plenty of times by a Rhino WSO or Tomcat RIO - just whoever was strike lead or senior dude in the fight. If you get a chance to see the doc "Speed and Angels," you get a pretty good idea of how knee-deep in driving the fight the RIOs are.

Definite "no" on the 'FO's being 2nd-class citizens in the Navy. The only folks in the Navy I've ever met who looked down on two-anchor types came from communities that don't have them (and that very seldom), and there's definitely no glass ceilings. Unless it's a type-specific command - where they keep the jobs "in the family" - no one gives a damn how many anchors you have or what you used to fly, except in a locker-room, oh-that's-interesting, who-do-you-know sort of way.

I've just heard a lot of werid stuff from Zoomies over the years over their (apparently mythical) caste system. A really awesome Colonel I worked for for a while got picked up for his first star, but word among the blue-suiters was that it was too bad he was a Nav and would thus never get higher. A Pave Low driver who used to be my neighbor told me he's been asked by other Air Force pilots if he wears the same wings they do.

So, glad to hear my impression of the AF was incorrect. That's why I brought it up.

 

[HackerF15E]

So, sounds like there's a lot of dumb hyperbole in both services that doesn't stand up to the truth.

Now, an interesting sidenote...

When I was a T-38 instructor in fighter lead-in, most of the IPs were single seat guys...and their ignorance about what WSOs brought to the fight was SIGNIFICANT. There is more than a little WSO-hating in the single seat world, that's for sure.

Interestingly, every former single seat guy I know who has transferred over to the F-15E has nothing bad to say about the 2-man cockpit. In fact, I don't know of anyone who has (on active duty) jumped ship from the Strike Eagle to go to a single seat jet, but I know of MANY who have gone the other way.

 

[Uncle Fester]

With the introduction of the Rhino and the demise of the Tomcat and the Hoover, there have been some shuffling of seats and adjustments of that sort going on in the Navy. Some Tomcat squadrons traded in for -18E's, S-3 pilots going to 18C/E squadrons, and some former C dudes learning to fly in F's. I'm not a Rhino guy myself, so I won't presume to speak to the deeper cultural changes or anything, but based on what I've heard from all of those guys, the ones who now don't have backseaters really miss it, and the ones who do (but didn't before) are amazed at the difference it makes. Even the ones who throw around "I don't need a FO - I can work the radios myself".

I guess what I was getting at isn't what the Air Force thinks CSOs bring to the fight - I don't think anyone who flies with a crew really wishes they didn't - but more how they view CSOs as career officers. My impression of the AF's attitude (based solely, I'll admit, on working with them in joint commands) was that there are some command-level jobs that may be filled by pilots or Navs, but many more that can "only" be filled by pilots. With the insinuation that somehow being in the front seat imbues you with some sort of leadership acumen you can't get in the back seat or something. I've had conversations with AF Navs, talking about respective career tracks and that sort of thing, where the gist of what I got from them was, sure NFOs could technically be CAGs, CVN skippers, CNO, etc, but it'll never happen, right? Sort of this abuse-survivor cynicism and the implication that it certainly doesn't work that way in the AF.

So, is there any truth to that, or was it just those guys? Are there many Navs that climb to the upper reaches? Does the AF consider pilots and Navs interchangable at the major command level? These aren't rhetorical questions, I'd really like to wade through the O-Club Happy Hour BS I've heard on this topic.

And on the original topic - the Navy's more than happy to take the extra Nav training at P'cola. We've learned that Air Force money spends pretty good.

 

[Flash]

I've had plenty of WSO Squadron Commanders, Group Commanders, and Wing Commanders...and they've gone on to get plenty of stars and the like.

Interesting that you throw on the AF that there's a 'caste system'. From everything I've seen, the Navy treats their 'FOs like more of a 2nd class citizen than in the AF...at least in the fighter business. I had a Tomcat driver from Oceana who could not believe that I was letting my WSO draw the lines and debrief BFM...couldn't grasp that my back seater would possibly be able to understand what the pilots were doing and reconstruct it after the fact.

In the F-15E community, the line is really blurred between the front seaters and the back seaters. I have to actually look at a dude's wings half the time to remember which one he is. If there was truly a caste system as you say, then the 'B team' would be well known to the pilots.

In the Strike Eagle community it may be that case but I have seen first hand that many Nav's are treated like second class USAF, especially in what you call 'heavies' (big planes). On RC-135's it is the AC that makes the final decisions when it comes to the mission, no matter that they often know little about what goes on in the back. In the EP-3 though the MC makes the decision about the mission, no matter if he is an NFO or a pilot. Safety of flight always rests with the AC. That is just one example, there are numerous other ones that I can point out that I have seen first hand.

To counter your point about equality, CENTCOM is a four star NFO, when was the last time there was a four star Nav?

 

[Lawman]

nevermind...

 

[HeyJoe]

In sticking with the original post???

CSO is the Combat Systems Officer on a carrier. He/She is normally a well seasoned CDR, often LDO.

Are you saying they are getting trained at Pensacola now? I'll have to ask the CSO on 72 about that....

Now if you are talking TAO's, (which sounds like the equivelant to the AF CSO) and JO's, I could see that, certainly NOT Navy CSO's.

Maybe you missed post#1 and the article that explains that topic is establishment of USAF CSO training at PCola. A USAF CSO does NOT equal a Navy CSO with which you are familiar.

 

[blackbart22]

In '59 Magnolia Field was solo's only. No instructors allowed. The pattern was something to behold.