mach tuck anyone
That was a pain to learn about in aerodynamic class, but very interesting.
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The break
- Thread starter Screamtruth
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That was a pain to learn about in aerodynamic class, but very interesting.
For you SOCALers, I saw a division of what looked like King Airs in a diamond formation over by Montgomery field the other day. They were sloppy as hell, but still. Don't see that everyday.Well, compared to the usual pattern, it is a break to us.
And also, what is a break? Loose speed, steep turn, some g's?? Right??? Well, the bank got above 60, went from 100kts to a steller 65 kts, and pulled about 3 g's, so if you think about it, i did a 'break'
Brett
hornet does fairly good at low alt with 2 or 3k of gas (coming in for the break), don't need to ramp downhill to get 550+ in mil
somebody asked what the "hum" was ... above around 500knots (low Alt), the hornet "hums", called the "hornet hum", you'd have to hear it to understand it
Brett, 350knots in the break is for pussies, but i suppose thats besides the point.
somebody asked what the "hum" was ... above around 500knots (low Alt), the hornet "hums", called the "hornet hum", you'd have to hear it to understand it
Brett, 350knots in the break is for pussies, but i suppose thats besides the point.
Screamtruth
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I have also noticed from some in cockpit footage that the pilot does some kind of hand signal, is this true?
So, from what I am hearing, approach ~1000', @350 KIAS or so, then midfield you break. How hard do you crank on it? I am used to the 172, so it wouldn't take much to slow, even from a high (for a 172) airspeed. How hard do the Hornet drivers get it to slow to approach speed from 350+ KIAS?
Last year I did a "break" if you could call it that, in a 421C @ ~200 KIAS, and it still didn't take us much to slow down. What I would give to fly in the fast movers for 30 min. I get too much helo time as it is, so speed is not in my vocab, although the S92 we fly out to our offshore rigs is faster than my 172.
So, from what I am hearing, approach ~1000', @350 KIAS or so, then midfield you break. How hard do you crank on it? I am used to the 172, so it wouldn't take much to slow, even from a high (for a 172) airspeed. How hard do the Hornet drivers get it to slow to approach speed from 350+ KIAS?
Last year I did a "break" if you could call it that, in a 421C @ ~200 KIAS, and it still didn't take us much to slow down. What I would give to fly in the fast movers for 30 min. I get too much helo time as it is, so speed is not in my vocab, although the S92 we fly out to our offshore rigs is faster than my 172.
I'm not arguing that point and couldn't agree more. My problem is with the dude that was suggesting that it was unsafe. I'm certainly open to a reasonable explanation/suggestion, but until then, I call bogus.
Brett
It's a function of airspeed and abeam distance.
In the daytime, a midfield break at 350 knots.... snatch it on to a good 15 units AOA and play the pull to reach a 1.0 abeam. If you maybe pull 17 units, you'll be tight and have to adjust... pull like a pvssy and do 12 units and you go wiiiiiiiiiide.
At night, 250 knots and 45 AOB.... you're way wide and have to compensate bigtime. It's just a turn to downwind.
It's a varying pull all the way around because you're slowing down as you pull. In the T-45, you roll, pull, throttle to idle, and speedbrakes out. At 200 knots you put the gear and flaps down. This all modifies how much G is on the jet, how much you're pulling, etc.
Let's not forget winds.
Then you got the 400+ break at the numbers.... that's funny to watch..... gear coming down in the groove.
The Break ??? Manpads ???? :icon_smil :spin_125: :cyclops_1 You have GOT to be sh!ttin ALL of us .... YES ??? I love you too crazy .... you are so funny.dawson said:
Manpads were in short supply in the '30's ... still did the break in the Navy and the AAC, though... fighters and "pursuit" ....
The "BREAK" is where the Navy Aviators get to BE SOMBODY (or used to) for everyone in the world, the field, and the ship to witness .... the troops loved it, by the way.
My last flight in the Fleet was leading a 3-plane fan break into the ship "in excess" of 450 KIAS .... broke hard @ the stern @ 400' ASL, looked great (I heard) and we got the only three "OK" passes for the recovery. The XO was in the tower and hated it (CAG chewed him out for not being able to "control" his pilots ) and was going to put me in hack but the CO of the ship "overrode" his decision .... .... made me a lot of points with the XO, of course. No problem as I was leaving ....
A man has GOT to know his limitations.
Whidbey, Lemoore, Miramar, North Island .... heck, all of 'em .... 500 KIAS @ the numbers if you could do it ---- traffic usually dictated speed and when you could break. The best might have been at AF bases ... calling the initial @ 250 KIAS and hitting the numbers @ 450-500 KIAS and "beaking" at the numbers. Drove the Zoomies nuts. I guess you can't do it today ....
Civilian world??? Heck, at Braniff, I even did a break (a real one) in the 727 at West End, Bahamas with a ship full of charter tourists. The tower was closed so we flew down the runway @ 1000' and 250 KIAS .... figured the wind was with us .... I said "how about it, Boss?" --- the Captain gave me a "thumbs up" and I did it. The passengers loved it ..... We also did it @ Braniff with 3 (three) orange 747s from right echelon parade formation when we brought the initial flight of theConcorde into DFW .... I kid you not. Unfortunately, again, times change.
My last flight in the Fleet was leading a 3-plane fan break into the ship "in excess" of 450 KIAS .... broke hard @ the stern @ 400' ASL, looked great (I heard) and we got the only three "OK" passes for the recovery. The XO was in the tower and hated it (CAG chewed him out for not being able to "control" his pilots
) and was going to put me in hack but the CO of the ship "overrode" his decision .... .... made me a lot of points with the XO, of course. No problem as I was leaving .... A man has GOT to know his limitations.
Whidbey, Lemoore, Miramar, North Island .... heck, all of 'em .... 500 KIAS @ the numbers if you could do it ---- traffic usually dictated speed and when you could break. The best might have been at AF bases ... calling the initial @ 250 KIAS and hitting the numbers @ 450-500 KIAS and "beaking" at the numbers. Drove the Zoomies nuts. I guess you can't do it today ....
Civilian world??? Heck, at Braniff, I even did a break (a real one) in the 727 at West End, Bahamas with a ship full of charter tourists. The tower was closed so we flew down the runway @ 1000' and 250 KIAS .... figured the wind was with us .... I said "how about it, Boss?" --- the Captain gave me a "thumbs up" and I did it. The passengers loved it ..... We also did it @ Braniff with 3 (three) orange 747s from right echelon parade formation when we brought the initial flight of theConcorde into DFW .... I kid you not. Unfortunately, again, times change.
There's no solid background for that comment, it's how I feel. here's why I feel that way. We all know we have 7.5Gs available at 350kts? sure, will you pull that in the break even if you're at 500kts, I hope so. The difference is that you'll be below corner in less than a second if it's initiated at 350, at which point you'll be capitalizing on the superior turn radius of the hornet, and you'll end up .4 abeam? Can we all adapt and overcome and just play the turn to end up closer to 1.5 abeam, sure. But let's not call it a break if that's what we're going to do, let's call it a turn to downwind. In fact at 350kts, if you pull even 4Gs, forget about 7.5, for more than 90* of turn you'll probably end up a mile abeam, still entirely too tight to make a safe approach. I have the utmost confidence in even the most junior aviator that by the time he reaches the Hornet FRS he'll know to ease the pull or end up taking it around. The issue with young pilots, and even some seasoned guys, is that naturally the stick input required for a safe and expeditious roll rate changes with airspeed. The aft stick input required for a safe smooth application of G changes with airspeed as well. As long as we're not ham fisting everything will be fine. But if we are, there's the potential for a guy to reef the nose around trying to look $hit hot but forgetting he's being legal today, and ending up in tone at 800feet.
Ok, here's the summary Brett. I believe that in order to execute a safe "break turn" at low altitude, a jet must have the airspeed required to apply full aft stick into the lap achieving every available G the airplane will give you for a full 180 degrees of turn and still be above corner when he rolls out. It's the only way such dynamic maneuvering is safe at such low altitudes. How is "aerobatic" flight defined, and how low can we do that? What is minimum maneuvering airspeed in LATT? If at any point in a "BREAK" turn you end up below corner, then in my opinion, you weren't going fast enough when you started it, and you should have simply made a left turn, not a break turn.
will do, and at 350kts
who said mill, who said level?
In fact I think I said "full grunt" aka. max AB
why would I come to a forum where there are other Hornet pilots all over the place and exagerate or lie? I'm telling you some of the instructors when I was in the RAG, liked to bring 600knots into the break on a regular basis? they would also tell studs to bring as much heat as the could handle. since when can you drill into the overhead level at break altitude?. The initial is always 1500+ and where I was talking about it's 2500+ "tanks" is the call or maybe "slammer" and yes, if you light the cans and dive from 2500 feet to 800 feet starting at around 350kts a hornet will easily break not just 600kts but the number, especially an EPE hornet.
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Ok, I just read this again, and I can't quite let it go that easily. I would suggest you think for a few moments about what experiences you have in your past to back up what you're saying. If you start at 5 or 10k and ramp downhill in blower in a C or A+ model hornet you will see 1.2+ every single time. The problem with breaking above 1.2 is the 1.23M mil lock out. In the hornet we can't get below mil power above 1.23. That's also a good reason not to attempt a split S from ANY altitude if you are above 1.23M. I know a guy that entered a split S from 20k' at above 1.23M. At bullseye nose low he realized what was going on, was unable to get less than military power, and had to make a split second decision. he knew that ejecting would either kill him or leave him so jacked up he wouldn't want to live, so he pressed the paddle switch, over stressed the jet and scooped it out about 2K'. In any case, don't underestimate the legacy hornet bro, especially one with 10.7 software. Ask a super guy
I saw a C guy on cruise come in at 6 bills and brokea a 1/4 of a mile aft of the stern in full grunt. He was bustering home cause he was late for recovery. He was going so damn fast that in the break his downrange momentum brought him to the fantail before he started turning. He caught the 4 wire and was HFAW. That's called balls my friends.
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