Teaching T-45 turning rejoins

[A4sForever]

.... This is why there is an established procedure ....

Just to clarify, lest any young skulls full of cottage cheese get the wrong impression from my 'bottom line' comments: Hacker is EXACTLY right ... there ARE basic, established procedures, FTI's, etc. in place that are time tested to prevent the potential downside of screwing up a RDVS (or anything else, for that matter). There's a reason for each and every one of them.

In Primary -- T34's -- we did the entry level stuff; the basics, if you will: -- we did the established procedures, we did the FTI under the tutelage of our Instructors.

In Basic Jet -- T2's -- we did the basics once again; higher, hotter, and faster, certainly ... but we did the established procedures, we did the FTI under the tutelage of our Instructors.

In Advanced Jet -- TA4's and TF9's -- we were allowed a little more free range to explore all the parameters of RDVS and tactical flying in general that we would soon be experiencing in the FLEET -- it was 'expected' of us -- and again, this more aggressive flying was under the tutelage of our Instructors.

In the FLEET -- flyin' whatever we flew -- we did what we had to do to get the job done. That's also what was expected.

Clear??

 

[ACowboyinTexas]

OK, in the "Do as I say, not as I do" line of thought; I can and loved doing a nice SH join, as A4s describes. (Up to and including the canopy roll :icon_wink) But here's how I taught it and what I sent Huggy via PM:

I teach students that a good CV Rendezvous (turning rejoin) begins from the break-up of the Break-up and Rendezvous (B&R). In the T-45 the wingman breaks 2 seconds after lead and maintains 250 knots and between 15-16 units AOA. This will place wing 1000' in trail behind lead when he rolls out. If wing is 1000' in trail, at 250 knots, the rest is simple:
When lead goes into his turn recheck your airspeed. If it's still 250 you've got a good power setting. When lead is clear of your HUD, add a little power and enter a 45 degree AOB turn to pull inside his turn. Reduce the AOB to less than 30 Degrees prior to reaching bearing line and then recheck airspeed, if it's 250-260 then you can stop worrying with the throttle until the join-up and concentrate on establishing/maintaing bearing line and altitude. Adjust AOB as necessary to arrive/stay on bearing line and check airspeed with each correction. 250-260 and you're fine. When you've worked to within 3 wingspans of lead start flying formation on him all the way from his right side, through the crossunder postiion and up into starboard parade. Voila! That's the short version of my B&R speil, but it works better with models on a stick. If you can access the Formation FTI on CNATRA's website, you can see the book version.

As any good teacher will tell ya, learn to do the basics perfectly before you try and dress things up.

 

[SDNalgene]

Sorry, it was a joke. I did not mean to cause a huge ruckus, and I will get to updating my profile. Making sure everyone knew exactly what airplane I am flying right now hasn't been a priority in my life.

Hacker, if you took my comment as anything other than a joke I apologize; the rest of you, easy with it.

 

[A4sForever]

Sorry, it was a joke. I did not mean to cause a huge ruckus, and I will get to updating my profile. Making sure everyone knew exactly what airplane I am flying right now hasn't been a priority in my life.

Hacker, if you took my comment as anything other than a joke I apologize; the rest of you, easy with it.

You did just fine ... there's no problem that I can discern. No apology required nor desired.

It's just Naval Aviators -- and even an Air Force weenie or two ... just talkin' about flyin' ...

As a result: all is right in the world.

 

[Semper Jump Jet]

Put your velocity vector on his aircraft, keep the closure between 150 and 200 kts, wait until you're about 1-2 plane widths from impact, then pull hard away. Use braking stop as required (if equipped).

Technique only.

*BTW........this has a high probability of getting you a down and/or killed.

HD actually taught it this way at the RAG. It does help to put the nozzles back aft when joined...

 

[HackerF15E]

Hacker, if you took my comment as anything other than a joke I apologize; the rest of you, easy with it.

C'mon, gimme a little more credit than that. I may be a USAF puke, but that doesn't *always* translate directly to "pussy".

No hurt feelings. Just friendly jabs. I'm a big boy, I can take being picked on by a bunch a swabbies.

You did just fine ... there's no problem that I can discern. No apology required nor desired.

It's just Naval Aviators -- and even an Air Force weenie or two ... just talkin' about flyin' ...

As a result: all is right in the world.

Shack. Plus, plenty of learnin', just the way that it's supposed to be.

 

[A4sForever]

...... When lead is clear of your HUD....

HUH?? HUD?? WTF?? You mean Paul Newman was ridin' in the back seat during your B&R's ... ???

Some guys have all the luck ...

 

[SDNalgene]

Sir, I think it's just a cross-generational thing. I think what Cowboy was saying is analogous to "wait for lead to get outside of Orville's head" from your backseat days when you used to instruct in Kitty Hawk....

 

[Flugelman]

Sir, I think it's just a cross-generational thing. I think what Cowboy was saying is analogous to "wait for lead to get outside of Orville's head" from your backseat days when you used to instruct in Kitty Hawk....

If I tol' ya oncet, I tol' ya a hunnerd times

 

[ACowboyinTexas]

Sir, I think it's just a cross-generational thing. I think what Cowboy was saying is analogous to "wait for lead to get outside of Orville's head" from your backseat days when you used to instruct in Kitty Hawk....

Damn, it's not that often that someone comes back with something that much funnier than any retort I was thinking of. So, "Yeah, what he said." :icon_tong

and +1

 

[HackerF15E]

It was side-by-side seating on the Wright Flyer.

 

[RHPF]

It was side-by-side seating on the Wright Flyer.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[SDNalgene]

It was side-by-side seating on the Wright Flyer.

Only in the C model. A4s instructed in the E model so that clearly isn't relevant here....

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

I think he's referring to the F-15Cs with the forward bulkhead defect... but even so, public reports said that it didn't apply to the F-15E, which is what it appears that Hacker flies and, therefore, irrelevant.

Only in the C model. A4s instructed in the E model so that clearly isn't relevant here....[/quote]

+1

Touché...

 

[airwinger]

Did alot of thinking about form flying, sadly too late for it to help my T-45 grades. One IP that really taught it well was Screech who was VT-7 OPSO circa 2005.
I'm spitballing here so bear with me.

In my view there are 3 types of closure
-from aspect i.e are you approaching from the tail or head on. This controlled in a B&R with fuselage alignment
- from misaligned turn circles, controlled by use of bearing line. Intuitively if you are sucked, completely in trail and co-airspeed, you'll never join up. Get acute enough and it gets interesting real quick.
-pure airspeed differential. I.e he's at 250 I'm at 260. The easiest to grasp.

IIRC, the form FTI says put wingtip on opposite stab which solves bearing, then ensure that he's in the triangle formed by the inside of the canopy bow which tackles fuselage alignment. If you then set 1200-1300pph(?) fuel flow(it's been 5 years so I'm rusty) you should be at 250ish.

The real perk is that if you do the same thing at night as opposed to hockey stop method, then night B&R's become pretty easy. "Hockey stop" method is not getting fuselage alignment till you're in pretty close.

As a sidenote one pet peeve in the fleet is being 1000 feet below the tanker with anywhere from head on to 90L aspect with my nose on him, when my ECMO complains that I have 50 knots closure within a mile since he's 260ish and I'm 310. Really dude? I'm probably closer to 250Vc but we'll go with 50