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Teaching T-45 turning rejoins
- Thread starter HuggyU2
- Start date
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
You talking B&Rs?
There's no life outside the turn!! 
Good thing you didn't say right hand turn...I don't think my shoulders allow me to turn right.
Seriously. As far as I know we only teach inside the turn join ups. I've had studs join outside the turn but that usually results in some additional time in the debrief room and then I don't have time to write LCDR fitrep--well...It's OCT BTW...hint hint to my DHs out there!
Good thing you didn't say right hand turn...I don't think my shoulders allow me to turn right.Seriously. As far as I know we only teach inside the turn join ups. I've had studs join outside the turn but that usually results in some additional time in the debrief room and then I don't have time to write LCDR fitrep--well...It's OCT BTW...hint hint to my DHs out there!
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Tasking via AW.. It's real and it has happened to me.
"Rejoins" ... :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:
I suppose you're talkin' RDVS, you AF-retread-weenie ....
BUT: NO FUCKIN' WAY should/will they RDVS/join 'outside' of the turn -- if I understand you correctly, you miserable AF-weenie, and I think I do ...
The ONLY way a bunch of wingmen behind (your retarded STUD when/if he reaches the FLEET) can see/avoid is if EVERYONE drives in on some semblance of a bearing line and SLIDES to the outside if/when the situation requires ... while the rest of the guys continue to drive in and slide across following ... it keeps everyone safe & relatively sane.
Or are you talkin' about something totally different and I just missed it??? What DO you want to be 'talked' through ... the whole FTI ???
>>> 'VFR turn away' <<<
Sorry ... I don't think I understand anything you said.
Probably my age ... or the AF-weenie ... or it must be the 'new' math ...
Sir, not an IP, but I can explain how I was taught how to do a turning and/or CV join out here in K'Rock.
First of all, once a CV, always a CV (if lead enters a turn after taking off, and rolls out of the turn, you still join to whichever side was the 'outside' while he was in the turn, if that makes any sense)
ABCs is the bedrock of a CV or turning join from what we were taught... Suitcase the following in this order...
Altitude: Put lead on the horizon, keep lead on the horizon. Unless you are talking night joinups or a tacan rendezvous, you will ALWAYS have lead on the horizon.
Bearing: Stay on the bearing line... Which in the T-45 you can tell if you are on the 30 degree bearing line if lead's outboard wingtip is lined up and hidden behind the top of his vertical stab (lead is turning towards you).
Closure: Keep closure under control. The student should never need more than 8-10 knots over 250 (the airspeed we use for nearly all joins). At night we do co-airspeed joins and let the geometry dictate the closure.
Once you are in close, slide below and aft of lead, and execute the last half of a 'V' crossunder up into the VFR parade turn away position (on the outside of the turn)
For tacan/night, etc rendezvous situations, you maintain a 500 foot stepdown from lead (or your interval) until you have bearing and closure suitcased. Once you have bearing and closure under control, you elevate to lead's altitude and execute the rest of the join.
From the technique department, tell your stud to use 30 AOB as his benchmark. The overall geometry was the key to learning how to properly execute these joins. Bearing line control is the name of the game. If he's getting acute, he'll need to reduce his angle of bank a couple degrees (assuming airspeed is where it needs to be). This will increase his closure, but put him back on bearing line or sucked if he uses too big of a correction. Once he captures bearing line, he should bring it back to 30 degrees (which is what lead will be holding).
Hope this helps sir.
First of all, once a CV, always a CV (if lead enters a turn after taking off, and rolls out of the turn, you still join to whichever side was the 'outside' while he was in the turn, if that makes any sense)
ABCs is the bedrock of a CV or turning join from what we were taught... Suitcase the following in this order...
Altitude: Put lead on the horizon, keep lead on the horizon. Unless you are talking night joinups or a tacan rendezvous, you will ALWAYS have lead on the horizon.
Bearing: Stay on the bearing line... Which in the T-45 you can tell if you are on the 30 degree bearing line if lead's outboard wingtip is lined up and hidden behind the top of his vertical stab (lead is turning towards you).
Closure: Keep closure under control. The student should never need more than 8-10 knots over 250 (the airspeed we use for nearly all joins). At night we do co-airspeed joins and let the geometry dictate the closure.
Once you are in close, slide below and aft of lead, and execute the last half of a 'V' crossunder up into the VFR parade turn away position (on the outside of the turn)
For tacan/night, etc rendezvous situations, you maintain a 500 foot stepdown from lead (or your interval) until you have bearing and closure suitcased. Once you have bearing and closure under control, you elevate to lead's altitude and execute the rest of the join.
From the technique department, tell your stud to use 30 AOB as his benchmark. The overall geometry was the key to learning how to properly execute these joins. Bearing line control is the name of the game. If he's getting acute, he'll need to reduce his angle of bank a couple degrees (assuming airspeed is where it needs to be). This will increase his closure, but put him back on bearing line or sucked if he uses too big of a correction. Once he captures bearing line, he should bring it back to 30 degrees (which is what lead will be holding).
Hope this helps sir.
>>> 'VFR turn away' <<<
Sorry ... I don't think I understand anything you said.
Probably my age ... or the AF-weenie ... or it must be the 'new' math ...
They probably just called it something different in the Civil War era sir.
'VFR turns' away from the section or division are done about each aircraft's axis, to match lead's angle of bank, so you'll be looking at lead's belly. 'IFR turns' away are done about lead's axis, so in the turn you'll be looking down his wing.
I guess just a different way of saying, turning in the goo, rotate about lead's axis, but if it's severe clear, rotate about your own axis to match lead's.
Huggy, what you're talking about is a CV rendezvous, generally set up in training as a B&R (or breakup & rendezvous). Lead and -2 start in parade (fingertip to you), then lead breaks away for 180deg. Interval for -2 to follow in trail depends on the desired objective (rdv from inside out outside the turn circle).
When -2 calls "in trail", lead starts a 30deg AOB turn. -2 then works the ABCs - altitude, bearing, & closure. When lead develops line of sight rate change and approaches a given reference point on -2's canopy, -2 overbanks to get on bearing and solve for fuselage alignment while keeping lead on the horizon. Once on bearing, modulate AOB to stay on bearing and keep A/S in the crosscheck to avoid stagnation or an underrun. A few plane widths out, cross under and join up in parade.
Joinup outside the turn is taboo, but I think the procedure above is what you were asking about...
BTW - I've been wondering since I got to Beale - how can it be a "rejoin" if it's the first joinup/rendezvous after takeoff?
When -2 calls "in trail", lead starts a 30deg AOB turn. -2 then works the ABCs - altitude, bearing, & closure. When lead develops line of sight rate change and approaches a given reference point on -2's canopy, -2 overbanks to get on bearing and solve for fuselage alignment while keeping lead on the horizon. Once on bearing, modulate AOB to stay on bearing and keep A/S in the crosscheck to avoid stagnation or an underrun. A few plane widths out, cross under and join up in parade.
Joinup outside the turn is taboo, but I think the procedure above is what you were asking about...
BTW - I've been wondering since I got to Beale - how can it be a "rejoin" if it's the first joinup/rendezvous after takeoff?
Were you not a formation on the ground prior to takeoff? When you checked in on the radio together, taxied together, and lined up on the runway together?
That's how we do it in the AF, at least. Perhaps in the USN you spontaneously become a "section" at gear retraction.
Nooooooooooooo ... @ rotation we spontaneously become life-takers & heart-breakers.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Well, we do have these pesky things called catapults to deal with.. Hence often taking off as singles.