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Tea Parties

Mumbles

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Nicely put Bev..

kind of like saying....Obama is not so much anti-American.....as he is POST-American, (USA somewhere between Albania and Zimbawe)....

Not so much a socialist/Marxist....as he is a Statist...with America not so much being a "Christian" nation...as it is a secular one with Gov't being the almighty entity.
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
We are seeing rampant taxation without representation (federal tax dollars to fund state pet projects and waste).

That's taxation without wisdom/sense. I'd refer you to John Oliver but I suspect you wouldn't like that :p. Just because the guy who you voted for is doing something stupid or that you disagree with does not equate to taxation without representation.

DC, on the other hand...

Not so much a socialist/Marxist....as he is a Statist...with America not so much being a "Christian" nation...as it is a secular one with Gov't being the almighty entity.

America is a secular nation that happens to be populated primarily by Christians. I think religion has its place in public life, but we aren't a "Christian" nation in the sense that England was "Anglican" once upon a time. IIRC
 

Mumbles

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
That's taxation without wisdom/sense. I'd refer you to John Oliver but I suspect you wouldn't like that :p. Just because the guy who you voted for is doing something stupid or that you disagree with does not equate to taxation without representation.

DC, on the other hand...



America is a secular nation that happens to be populated primarily by Christians. I think religion has its place in public life, but we aren't a "Christian" nation in the sense that England was "Anglican" once upon a time. IIRC

No shit?? I guess it really is now.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
They are going to the biggest red-neck in the trailer park to describe the event in the hopes that he will come off as a fool and therefore paint the entire group as such. As a result the whole movement becomes a caricature of itself, and the DEMS are picking the cartoonist.
As opposed to media darling Cindy Sheehan, the rational anti-war protestor.

Oh wait, she was a moonbat, too.

Wild ass rhetoric like some of the stupid Obama/Hitler comparisons are counterproductive and they don't make any more sense than when the Dems were using those same comparisons on President Bush.
Agreed completely

A much better comparison for Obama would be King George III. After all, it was out of control taxes, taxation without representation, and attempts at arms control that caused the American Revolution. We are seeing the same things now. Taxes are out of control on productive Americans, we are seeing rampant taxation without representation (federal tax dollars to fund state pet projects and waste), and attempts at arms and ammunition control.

The parallels between Obama and George III are clear, and the end results of GeorgeIII's decisions speak volumes to the road ahead.

Wait, so you're trying to justify the Tea Party analogy?
*Rolling back a tax cut makes it now "out of control." I suppose the same pre-tax cut "out of control" taxes killed the economy in the 1990's. Uh, wait, it didn't. There's room for responsible debate on the appropriate level of taxation. Drawing an arbitrary line in the sand as "out of control" is empty rhetoric.
*Taxation without representation - What representation are we lacking, exactly? You don't agree with what your representatives did, fine. We don't run government by referendum. If you find our constitutional republic inadequate and wish to overthrow it for a direct democracy.....that's your choice.
*The only attempts at arms control so far have been in the imaginations of gun-owners. I do find it impossible to buy ammo at Wal-mart, but I have hysterical gun-owners to thank for that, not Obama.

The Tea Party was a cute literary device, and not a bad theme for a Conservative get-together (which is what it was before the protest idea took hold - I still get invited; I don't know why). As a serious piece of political analysis, it's laughable. The insinuation of armed rebellion, even more so. As you so eloquently stated elsewhere, crack a book.

And you wonder why, with all this invocation of revolutionary rhetoric, DHS might be concerned about a rise in right-wing violence.

I hope these Tea Parties are the start of something, and not just a one-time thing, time will tell though. The political Left are very threatened I think by them, and the visceral hatred and snobbiness shown at them from much of the media I think was disgraceful.

A start of what? Republicans claiming the mantle of economic populism? Facile historical analogies? Four years of claims that the administration will end the republic as we know it?

I'm not looking forward to it.

This hysteria and drumbeating of false urgency is self-defeating and will only marginalize the right - do you think Code Pink or the ilk of leftist chicken littles are assets to the Dems? Even assuming that the populist economic arguments are right and the stimulus spending is a mistake, the republic will survive. The Conservative movement may not, unless Obama proves as devastating for the left as Bush was for the right.

I'm not holding my breath.
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
That's taxation without wisdom/sense.

No, my friend. It is taxation without representation. Case and point:

In the November elections of 2004, the state of California passed Prop 71 which authorized 3 billion dollars of state money for stem cell research. As you might remember, President Bush had a ban on federal money going to this type of research because many Americans feel that it is morally objectionable. A majority of Californians felt differently, so they decided to spend 3 BILLION of their own money. All fine and dandy, except that the State of California did not have 3 billion dollars. That state is currently between 135 and 170 billion dollars in debt..the largest debt by a fantastic margin of any in the nation.

Fast forward to 2009, and California is getting rewarded to the tune of more than 85 billion federal dollars for their fiscal irresponsibility. Our federal tax dollars are going directly to pay the bills that California decided to run up with no viable plan to pay them off.

If you don't like the stem cell example, you can easily find a ton of other examples of California laws that encourage illegal immigration to that state that have caused additional billions of budget short falls in education and health care among other things.

Taxpayers in Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, etc have their own challenges that they have to deal with and many of them have found ways to do so in a (more) responsible manner. Forcing those of us who had no say in how California wasted it's money (or money it never had in the first place) to pay for those expenses is BY DEFINITION taxation without representation.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Forcing those of us who had no say in how California wasted it's money (or money it never had in the first place) to pay for those expenses is BY DEFINITION taxation without representation.

How? We elected those individuals at the federal level, and they approved the bailout of my wonderful little state (in one way or another). It's a lot of things, but I fail to see how "un-represented" is not but a stretch. :(
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Forcing those of us who had no say in how California wasted it's money (or money it never had in the first place) to pay for those expenses is BY DEFINITION taxation without representation.

No, Bevo, it's really not. The DEFINITION of taxation without representation would be =

Taxation - The levying of a tax by a government entity upon an individual
Without - In the absence of
Representation - Elected representative(s) speaking on behalf of the constituency

The government, who you (or a majority/plurality of your electoral grid) VOTED FOR, and which now REPRESENTS YOU, taxed you, and used the money to bail out California.

Had the government of CALIFORNIA, in which you have NO VOICE taxed you, then you'd have an argument. But YOUR government took your tax dollars and gave them money. Stupid? Probably. TWR? No.
 

2ndGen

Third times a charm
I agree with Bevo on this. If my tax dollars are being spent by someone that I did not have the chance to vote on, I believe that, yes that is without representation. I don't feel like that is the big problem though. The problem is the elected officials who are not doing what the people who elected them want.
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I agree with Bevo on this. If my tax dollars are being spent by someone that I did not have the chance to vote on, I believe that, yes that is without representation. I don't feel like that is the big problem though. The problem is the elected officials who are not doing what the people who elected them want.

Yes it's SPENDING without representation!

But to hell with the semantics.

I disagree with what I've bolded there. The problem is the elected officials ARE doing what the people want. People want a quick fix. They don't want the economy to right itself naturally, because they don't want to cut back through the lean times. Yes, there are people out there advocating responsible spending, but they are in the minority.

Plus, as a politician, do you want to be the guy who "let us sink into a recession" or the guy who rode in on his white horse and saved the day?
 

Random8145

Registered User
Wait, so you're trying to justify the Tea Party analogy?
*Rolling back a tax cut makes it now "out of control." I suppose the same pre-tax cut "out of control" taxes killed the economy in the 1990's. Uh, wait, it didn't. There's room for responsible debate on the appropriate level of taxation. Drawing an arbitrary line in the sand as "out of control" is empty rhetoric.

It wasn't about taxation or revoking the Bush tax cuts, it was about the out-of-control spending and borrowing that is occurring.

*Taxation without representation - What representation are we lacking, exactly? You don't agree with what your representatives did, fine. We don't run government by referendum. If you find our constitutional republic inadequate and wish to overthrow it for a direct democracy.....that's your choice.

There were of course your ultra-Libertarian types who didn't know what they were saying at these rallies (you listen to talk radio and they occassionally call in to!), but the basic point is there (regarding taxes), which is that Americans are being taxed too much. You add up federal, state, county, city/town, property, FICA, sales, corporate taxes (passed on to the consumer, shareholders, employees, etc...) and the average American is handing over a pretty large chunk of their paycheck to Uncle Sam.

Also now the states, because they have spent so much, are all raising taxes themselves. Government is talking about an ecommerce tax I think too.

This level of spending is not sustainable. The level of interest on the national debt alone is going to grow so large it will consume a huge portion of the Federal budget if they don't stop. That will mean they will have to yank taxes up sharply to pay for it.

And Obama, while trying to hamstring the economy with carbon regulations, higher taxes, and union card check, somehow thinks he'll have the growth to fund things like universal healthcare coverage (which is driving Massachusettes fiscally into the ground right now).

And while the people do have representatives, these tea parties can be a good way to tell their representatives to stop spending so much to the point that they then must raise taxes, and that they're being watched and will be held accountable by a lot of people.

That's why the political Left is so frightened of them. If they were truly insignificant, or if the Left considered them truly insignificant, they wouldn't care. Some senseless right-wing protesters, no more relevant than a high school protest, would be their attitude. But because they deem it might mean an organized threat to their power in government, they are going crazy.

*The only attempts at arms control so far have been in the imaginations of gun-owners. I do find it impossible to buy ammo at Wal-mart, but I have hysterical gun-owners to thank for that, not Obama.

Different areas and cities have different levels of gun control, Washington, D.C. being one prime example. And gun owners have a right to be a little paranoid, as government is always trying to infringe on the Second Amendment in various ways.

The Tea Party was a cute literary device, and not a bad theme for a Conservative get-together (which is what it was before the protest idea took hold - I still get invited; I don't know why). As a serious piece of political analysis, it's laughable. The insinuation of armed rebellion, even more so. As you so eloquently stated elsewhere, crack a book.

So the anti-war protests against George Bush were just "cute literary devices?" As political analysis, they were laughable? The insinuation of impeaching President Bush, even more so?

The basic point of those protests was those people disagreed with the war.

These "tea party" protests were people organizing to tell the government they want them to stop with the out-of-control spending and borrowing, and to some extent, taxation.

And while you can say, "The people elected this government in, they're getting what they wanted," well only by a small majority. Some 48% voted the other way. There are a large amount of people in this country who disagree with what the government is doing.

And you wonder why, with all this invocation of revolutionary rhetoric, DHS might be concerned about a rise in right-wing violence.

You just said these Tea Party protests were "cute." If they were cute, why would the government be at all concerned about "right-wing" violence? I don't think "right-wing" violence has ever been much a threat in this country, or at least not of late.

Could you imagine the uproar that would have ensued if the Bush administration had expressed concern over "Leftwing violence?"
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
And while you can say, "The people elected this government in, they're getting what they wanted," well only by a small majority. Some 48% voted the other way. There are a large amount of people in this country who disagree with what the government is doing.

53%-46% is a pretty big margin! In raw terms that's almost 10 million votes.

Senate: 56-41 (58%)
House: 254-178 (59%)
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
I was responding to Bevo's arguments, which were word for word "taxes are out of control" I'm not saying Republicans don't have an argument; I'm saying the Tea Party analogy is crap. It was a cute party idea. To seriously compare today's political situation with 1773 with the very clear implication that rebellion is on the horizon - that isn't reason for worry? In 2004, The NYPD did more than express concern about left-wing violence at the RNC. They conducted intelligence work, attended protest planning sessions and complied dossiers on potential anarchists and left-wing terrorism. They drew some ill-founded (IMHO) flak for profiling the political character of likely threats, and some well-founded (IMHO) concerns about the legality of their intelligence gathering, but they did a damn good job heading off potential violence. If you don't think right-wing violence is a threat, how old were you in 1995?

Don't delude yourself into thinking this is some high-minded revolution to form a more perfect union. It's a tax revolt. A better (but still imperfect) analogy would be the Whisky rebellion (or Shay's Rebellion). But those didn't work out so well, did they?
 

Jynx

*Placeholder*
Contributor
I just got off the phone with some family who work in corporate media.

What they're telling me is that a lot of democratic officials are actually quite nervous about the legs the discussion about tea-parties is proving to have.

Whether or not you agree with their message, it can't be denied that the message isn't being heard loud and clear that next November congress is up for grab again.
 

Random8145

Registered User
53%-46% is a pretty big margin! In raw terms that's almost 10 million votes.

Senate: 56-41 (58%)
House: 254-178 (59%)

I meant the popular vote.

I was responding to Bevo's arguments, which were word for word "taxes are out of control" I'm not saying Republicans don't have an argument; I'm saying the Tea Party analogy is crap. It was a cute party idea. To seriously compare today's political situation with 1773 with the very clear implication that rebellion is on the horizon - that isn't reason for worry?

I don't think the idea of the tea parties was to imply that today's political situation is the same as that in 1773 with an implication that rebellion is on the horizon. And I didn't see anyone crying for rebellion or to march on Washington. Just the idea of organizing to protest over spending and taxes.

In 2004, The NYPD did more than express concern about left-wing violence at the RNC. They conducted intelligence work, attended protest planning sessions and complied dossiers on potential anarchists and left-wing terrorism. They drew some ill-founded (IMHO) flak for profiling the political character of likely threats, and some well-founded (IMHO) concerns about the legality of their intelligence gathering, but they did a damn good job heading off potential violence. If you don't think right-wing violence is a threat, how old were you in 1995?

Timothy McVeigh was one man and one incident. I don't think you have the consistent threat of right-wing violence like you do left-wing violence. The DNC doesn't have to worry about crazy right-wingers showing up to disrupt the place, nor do you have to worry about abortion clinics being blown up in the way you do SUV dealerships in certain areas. You don't have to worry about mosques getting invaded by crazy righties like churches occassionally do by crazy leftists.

Don't delude yourself into thinking this is some high-minded revolution to form a more perfect union. It's a tax revolt. A better (but still imperfect) analogy would be the Whisky rebellion. But that didn't work out so well, did it?

Never said it was some high-minded revolution, and I don't want any revolution. It was a tax and SPENDING revolt. Government growth is out-of-control.
 

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I meant the popular vote.

In the general presidential election?

Third party/independent candidates largely cancelled each other out, with liberal candidates raking in a few more votes.

President Obama defeated Senator McCain by 7 percentage points and 9.5 million votes. Which is a decent margin, considering the winner in 2000 had 500k fewer votes than the loser.
 
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