T-6 vs T-34

[wlawr005]

In fairness to today's students, I showed up with the prior crewchief mentality of opening every panel ready to play stump the chump on circuit breakers, black boxes, and cannon plugs, etc. I was promptly informed that "we don't do that here...open the engine cowling, check the oil cap, and press." I couldn't believe the lack of inspection on the...well, preflight inspection. T-6 preflight is really more of a walkaround/safety check compared to what I was used to in the fleet.

I don't know if the IPs were instructed to expect less viv-a-vis how they did things in the T-34, but things are just different. Maybe if the T-6 had a NATOPS that was worth a shit, more could be expected of students regarding systems knowledge and other stuff. As for photocopying a systems diagram and bringing that to a brief, I have been specifically instructed to do that exact same thing. I believe that once the IP experience level shifts towards better systems knowledge and a stronger culture, so will the students.

 

[Renegade One]

As a VT IP, for the most part, guys showed up seeming at least somewhat prepared.

This is interesting. Is there any "VT IP" expectation that folks will show up…what? ..."better prepared" due to social media (like FB, AW, etc.) than in the past?

I would hope not. If it's happening…good-o and good on those who went the extra kilometer to best prepare. But doesn't the average guy/gal still show up pretty much a blank slate, aviation skills-wise?

 

[scubasteve38]

I'll definitely learn as much of the aircraft and procedures as I can before I do my first flight, I'm not expecting to be spoon fed everything. Also I'm not asking this question because I want to choose primary based on the which one gives me an advantage. I just wanted to know the differences between the aircraft to get an idea of what to expect depending on where I go for Primary.

 

[Renegade One]

...I showed up with the prior crewchief mentality of opening every panel ready to play stump the chump on circuit breakers, black boxes, and cannon plugs, etc. I was promptly informed that "we don't do that here...open the engine cowling, check the oil cap, and press." I couldn't believe the lack of inspection on the...well, preflight inspection. T-6 preflight is really more of a walkaround/safety check compared to what I was used to in the fleet.

Good point…but there is a difference between all that your Plane Captains/Crew Chiefs are expected to do and what you as the pilot are expected to do. Trust the former to do their job, and resist the temptation to show that you don't trust them to have done that.

 

[NavAir42]

Also, FYI with systems briefs- Don't hand your IP a shitty xerox copy of a NATOPS page with some whiteout thrown on it and expect them to be pleased with your systems knowledge... or if the IP is like NavAir, even give you a chance to start talking before he ends your brief and sends you packing and finds a student that acts like they want to be there that day.

Funny, I've done exactly that. I tell my onwings that their systems drawings/diagrams don't have to be works of art they just have to get the point across that they know the system and that they're putting in the effort for the brief. I've had two students hand me photocopied pages out of NATOPS and neither went flying with me that day.

Kmac, as to performance: because the T-6 has a lot more horses the top end performance is a lot better in the air. Max blast in the -34 would get you 190-ish while the T-6 will get in excess of 250. Fuel economy down low for the -6 is a little worse but not really having an effect on hours/x. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for contacts the biggest performance difference isn't so much in the air as the runway required to land. A full stop at Barin after a long landing just isn't going to happen anymore because of the lack of beta. For instruments, this thing is a ccx machine. Having the ability to get up to FL280 en route opens up a lot of the country and still keeps the ability to get a bunch of approaches done.

Gator, as to student attitude/readiness to learn, I've had a pretty good experience in both aircraft. The on wings I've had have all shown up and known what they needed for Fam-0/1 without me spoon feeding them. That said, some of my compadres in the squadron haven't been so luckyand have come across students who have been less than proactive. For student in particular the fireworks show that happened in the briefing spaces when this kid didn't know any of the things his onwing specifically told him, in no uncertain terms, the day before that he needed to know, was pretty epic.

 

[Fallonflyr]

The T-6 doesn't have beta? Beta is the coolest thing a prop can do.

 

[Renegade One]

The T-6 doesn't have beta? Beta is the coolest thing a prop can do.

Other than "that other thing"...

 

[Gatordev]

This is interesting. Is there any "VT IP" expectation that folks will show up…what? ..."better prepared" due to social media (like FB, AW, etc.) than in the past?

I would hope not. If it's happening…good-o and good on those who went the extra kilometer to best prepare. But doesn't the average guy/gal still show up pretty much a blank slate, aviation skills-wise?

No, but there is an expectation to show up meeting what's on the grade card. If you show up and don't understand why you're doing a particular system check, I'm okay with that, but you still need to know what to do so we can at least carry on a conversation on how to physically do it and I can tell you why we're doing it. This isn't related to Primary, but lately, I've been surprised at how several students haven't bothered to sit in the cockpit to find the switches and practice unless it's during their actual OFT.

Good point…but there is a difference between all that your Plane Captains/Crew Chiefs are expected to do and what you as the pilot are expected to do. Trust the former to do their job, and resist the temptation to show that you don't trust them to have done that.

It's been brought up before on the site, but there's a fundamental difference in how jet dudes preflight and how helo guys preflight. I'm NOT saying one is better than the other, but typically, a helo guy is going to open a lot more panels and climbs all over the airframe during a pre-flight (and often finds things wrong). I would guess it's due to the increased number of moving parts you're actually able to see on a helo versus how a lot of the control-related stuff is hidden under the skin on a fixed-wing.

Like I said, it is what it is, and not meant to be a dig on either type.

 

[jollygreen07]

You know, thinking back to primary (and maybe it was the squadron I was in) I was SCARED SHITLESS of downing a brief. My onwing was a cool guy, and on FAM-3 or something I showed up with less than an impressive knowledge of a system. He sat there quietly through my brief, got up, went outside, came back in and said something to the effect of. "Alright, WX is shit. I'm not going to RRD you today, but don't ever show up to a brief with that level of knowedge again."

Needless to say, I never left anything on the table during a brief again. If students aren't taking the time to learn the pitifully small NATOPS they have now. God help them when they get to the fleet and have a NATOPS like this:

 

[Gatordev]

The other guys will know what the current "policy" is, but while I was there, it was briefed by STAN to utilize the one-time gift of no RRD on FAM 1 or 2. The understanding was it didn't make sense to give one of the 3 total failures allowed when the stud just may not understand how the program works. Sometimes it was used dramatically, sometimes it was used as a "get your shit together, this is a gift" method, but it generally would help when needed.

I had to do it with one of my first two on-wings on his FAM 2. He had some other things going on, but he also wasn't studying effeciently or effectively. After his "gift," he improved.

 

[Renegade One]

... it is what it is, and not meant to be a dig on either type.

Roger.

 

[scoolbubba]

Reaching way back, I remember the T-6A (air force style) preflight to have been a panel, oil cap, fuel cap, tires, hyd accumulator safety inspection. System knowledge expectations were cursory, at best. Advanced hammered home systems knowledge, mostly because we were flying with VP/VQ dudes, with a handful of osprey and AF types thrown in.

Opening the cowling on FAM-0 with my VP on-wing and playing "what's that...how does it work...what does the procedure say about that" was an eye opening experience, after being in AF land where not knowing your notes/warnings/cautions verbatim was downable, but a complete misunderstanding of the system was totally ok.

 

[zippy]

This is interesting. Is there any "VT IP" expectation that folks will show up…what? ..."better prepared" due to social media (like FB, AW, etc.) than in the past?

I would hope not. If it's happening…good-o and good on those who went the extra kilometer to best prepare. But doesn't the average guy/gal still show up pretty much a blank slate, aviation skills-wise?

No, I'm not expecting social media post to help students become better prepared. However all of the gouge they use these days is digital (Dropbox accounts etc.) Apparently that gouge doesn't cover "read through fam 0 discuss items" and "practice preflighting with a buddy whose done one before so looking entirely clueless isn't your first impression with your onwing."
The OP asked, and I threw out a pet pieve of many of my peers hoping it well help them. Maybe one day someone will get a clue and start hooking up their buddies and shed the "all about me" mentality that this most recent generation of students seems to possess.

There's been a rash of "Officer Like Quality" issues in the VTs and HTs lately. The Commodore just recently re-affirmed the greenlight for squadrons to attrite students who don't have their shit together as officers, regardless of how well they fly... If we don't want them in a fleet squadron- we shouldn't pass them on. Dudes who try to bang other students wives, students who get caught lying or just generally don't have their shit together are now in the cross hairs. If they continue to fuckup the trigger will be pulled and their replacement will be brought in.

Unfortunately it's probably going to take a rash of RRUs because of student preparation or an OLQ attrition for students to get the picture. Hopefully after the sacrificial lambs, the remaining students will start policing themselves.

 

[sevenhelmet]

^^^This is good. I learned more useful info from classmates and buddies ahead of me in flight school than I did from anything on a computer. But guys that were dicks and didn't help the team were fairly quickly singled out and ostracized. This was only about 6 years ago, it's surprising things have apparently changed that much.

 

[zippy]

^90-95% of the students are good to go but there's an old saying, "the loudest voice speaks for all, and if you fail the attitude test expect to get a tune-up".