JAGMAN stands for Judge Advocate General Manual. The UCMJ covers what's illegal for us to do, while the JAGMAN covers procedures used in military courts, military investigations, etc.
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T-45 Mishap
- Thread starter FLYTPAY
- Start date
WinterMute
New Member
Google comes up with...
JAGMAN Judge Advocate General Manual
I don't think that is it, but I don't think it really matters.
Thanks all.
{EDIT:Wow, sorry for the triple post}
JAGMAN Judge Advocate General Manual
I don't think that is it, but I don't think it really matters.
Thanks all.
{EDIT:Wow, sorry for the triple post}
From a friendly local ASO... the AMB investigates and writes/releases the SIR. While not all information in the SIR is privilaged, since some is, the entire document generally is. The purpose of privilage is basically so someone can feel comfortable giving information that isn't going to be used to get someone in trouble. Both privilaged and non-privilaged witness statements and other data go into the SIR, nothing privilaged can be used for a JAGMAN or a FNAEB or NCIS or anything else that might come up.
The SIR should only be released to the comunity it applies to... but something like the S-3 mishap in Jax a couple years ago was released to everyone... . The SIR is supposed to disappear enitrely (except for records kept at NSC) after 2 years, with only general data for training available to the Fleet after that.
But it's now been 16 months since I went to ASO school so anyone else feel free to correct me!
It WAS NOT released to everyone......just those with a need to know or had a dog in the fight if you will.
What used to drive us crazy was a JAGMAN was the universally & liberally applied remedy to most "simple" ground accidents as well -- thus generating maximum hate & discontent & paperwork for all involved.
Example: a jet comes up on the power on the roof to make a turn to the CAT and a loose, just removed nose tow-bar goes flying and hits a brown shirt, breaking his right arm. We're at sea running cyclic ops 24 hours a day ....
The fix: do a JAGMAN which takes beaucoup man-hours and days to come up w/ "the answer".
The answer: Don't leave nose tow-bars lying around any more.
Case closed. :sleep_125
Example: a jet comes up on the power on the roof to make a turn to the CAT and a loose, just removed nose tow-bar goes flying and hits a brown shirt, breaking his right arm. We're at sea running cyclic ops 24 hours a day ....
The fix: do a JAGMAN which takes beaucoup man-hours and days to come up w/ "the answer".
The answer: Don't leave nose tow-bars lying around any more.
Case closed. :sleep_125
True, not "everyone", what I was going for is most SIRs are only released within their community, but if there is something the safety center thinks a wider audience will benefit from, then it has a bit bigger distribution.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
This gets back to what I was saying in the B-2 crash thread......
There are alomst certainly lessons learned from every mishap that could be learned by ALL of Naval Aviation. Why do we deliberately stovepipe mishap reports into communities who "appear to have a dog in the fight"?
I can see delaying the report until after the JAG comes out to protect the privledged info from being used in a criminal/punishment capacity, but other than that, why all of the secrecy?
All that leads to is lack of learning and ignorant speculation by everybody else.
I can't tell you the number of times I've heard somebody spout off about the cause of some mishap or another and completely misquote/misrepresent the findings of the AMB. Why? They never read the source document and the people listening to him couldn't readily get access to it to check for themselves.
Bad information is worse than no information.
If we want to learn from our mistakes and prevent them from reoccurring, we need to be more "open kimono" about our mishaps.
Ya.. the old days... When I was doing work-ups, we did Triple H Ops.. (Helos, Hummers, and Hoovers).. Them Hornets can't fly all night (24 hr ops) or the Tomcats for that matter.. PUSSIES! I always use that to fuel the fire with my fellow Vampires here flying the backside of the clock....
It generally has to do with what CADs are on the message. Generally a mishap involving a 60 will get the CAD "All Seahawk Activities". But sometimes it gets left off. I guess the end result is that it just comes down to what CADs the AMB decides should get the SIR.
It's the same thing with hazreps. If an ASO decides that a hazrep about vertigo should go to "all multicrew aircraft" then they get it. If the ASO decides that it should only go to "all rotary wing aircraft" then only helo bubbas get it and everyone else gets to miss out on a good learning oppurtunity.
To all the nuggets or wannabees out there: Imagine if your wife/husband/mom/dad found out you were killed in an aircraft MISHAP by process of elimination, or CNN, or a phone call from a frantic wife asking if they have spoken to their husband because she heard from so-and-so there was a mishap. This is not the way to do business.
Giving orders to wives generally doesn't work; all can empathize with the difficulty of this situation. Telling them why not to blab is a good idea. Before a mishap.
Two morals of the story:
1) Don't gossip about mishaps. If you can reasonably justify sharing privileged mishap information with the purpose of improving flight safety, do it. There is no other good reason.
2) If YOU are SDO or CACO or tasked with the official notification, do it right, and do it quickly.
I've seen this f(*%^'d up too many times and it's REALLY important.
On another note: A4s stupid JAGMANs are still happening. Hornet breaks ATFLIR flying through T'Storm. Lots of paperwork to figure out - DON"T FLY THROUGH THUNDERSTORMS.
Giving orders to wives generally doesn't work; all can empathize with the difficulty of this situation. Telling them why not to blab is a good idea. Before a mishap.
Two morals of the story:
1) Don't gossip about mishaps. If you can reasonably justify sharing privileged mishap information with the purpose of improving flight safety, do it. There is no other good reason.
2) If YOU are SDO or CACO or tasked with the official notification, do it right, and do it quickly.
I've seen this f(*%^'d up too many times and it's REALLY important.
On another note: A4s stupid JAGMANs are still happening. Hornet breaks ATFLIR flying through T'Storm. Lots of paperwork to figure out - DON"T FLY THROUGH THUNDERSTORMS.
Fetus speaks the truth. I had a big long story typed out about how one of the squadron wives, wanting to be the one with the scoop, once sent my entire family into panic by calling my parents, not my wife--my parents, and shooting off at the lips about a crash that I had nothing to do with. In the interest of not boring anyone to death I decided to skip it.
Fetus said:
Some of you may remember that just over two years ago, immediately after a fatal T-34 crash, a wife came on the board and started spilling everything she had heard. Before any kind of news report or official release had been made, she named the squadron involved and told us she would post more as soon as she could find out. She was promptly banned, and if I remember right, took so much heat from what she did that she asked to have her account completely deleted. Nobody here will try to give a wife an order but we also won't stand for such nonsense. After that incident, the webmaster clarified some rules for the mods, which can be summed up as follows:
In summary: Nobody likes a dumbass.
Either that, or: Loose lips get asses kicked.