STA- Who wants it?

[phrogpilot73]

Because people are immature and irresponsible. If the navy treated DUI like a true crime, navy guys might be a little more cautious when drinking. I think you should get brig time for DUI's. Period. Not 45/45 and half months pay times 2, which most people circumvent via allotments. The way the navy handles DUI's is a complete joke. You get the same punishment, as if you show up to work late too many times.

I disagree with you on this one. Your argument reflects a zero-defect mentality, which is not needed in the military. Here's my argument: People make mistakes. Should they be punished as severely as you suggest for what could be their only mistake in life? I don't think so. Each and every case must be judged individually on its merits, which is what the military does now.

Case in point - I had 3 beers in 4 hours. I'm good, right? Nope. I blew a .09. Got arrested and had a command that supported me, and suspended judgement based on my past performance and the outcome of the civilian side. When it was dismissed, I was allowed to continue my career - and it turned into a pretty successful one. According to your rationale, I should have been in the brig and my career flushed down the toilet, rather than being judged on my merits and future potential.

Did I learn a lesson? Yup. I cut WAY back on my drinking (I was nearly an alcoholic at that point), and I don't drive now if I've had a single sip of beer within 24 hours. More fuel to the fire (things I picked up in the DUI classes I had to go to) - Most people think your body processes 1 drink/hour. It's actually 1 drink/1 1/2 hours. Everyone's body processes alcohol differently. So, a 160lb man may have 3 beers in 4 hours and blow a .09 while a 280lb man will have the same amount and blow a .07. Finally, you may be above the limit and not be impaired - i.e. you can't feel it. If you're a borderline alcoholic, you may not be impaired until .10, .11 or higher. Why? Tolerance. All of this adds up to why you can't just draw a blanket, all encompassing rule.

The civilian courts allow flexibility as well - hence the reason mine was dismissed. You're arguing that the military shouldn't be flexible? Again, that's a zero-defect mentality.

 

[k_smittay]

I disagree with you on this one. Your argument reflects a zero-defect mentality, which is not needed in the military. Here's my argument: People make mistakes. Should they be punished as severely as you suggest for what could be their only mistake in life? I don't think so. Each and every case must be judged individually on its merits, which is what the military does now.

Case in point - I had 3 beers in 4 hours. I'm good, right? Nope. I blew a .09. Got arrested and had a command that supported me, and suspended judgement based on my past performance and the outcome of the civilian side. When it was dismissed, I was allowed to continue my career - and it turned into a pretty successful one. According to your rationale, I should have been in the brig and my career flushed down the toilet, rather than being judged on my merits and future potential.

Did I learn a lesson? Yup. I cut WAY back on my drinking (I was nearly an alcoholic at that point), and I don't drive now if I've had a single sip of beer within 24 hours. More fuel to the fire (things I picked up in the DUI classes I had to go to) - Most people think your body processes 1 drink/hour. It's actually 1 drink/1 1/2 hours. Everyone's body processes alcohol differently. So, a 160lb man may have 3 beers in 4 hours and blow a .09 while a 280lb man will have the same amount and blow a .07. Finally, you may be above the limit and not be impaired - i.e. you can't feel it. If you're a borderline alcoholic, you may not be impaired until .10, .11 or higher. Why? Tolerance. All of this adds up to why you can't just draw a blanket, all encompassing rule.

The civilian courts allow flexibility as well - hence the reason mine was dismissed. You're arguing that the military shouldn't be flexible? Again, that's a zero-defect mentality.

Again, agree to disagree. I have zero tolerance for drunk driving. Zero tolerance is just that. It should be treated as illegal drug use. If you look at the statistics, more people are killed every year on the roads due to "drunk drivers" than are murdered. Over 16,800 poeple killed because of drinking and driving. The worst part of this statistic is that most people killed are innocent victims because the drunk always seems to survive the accident. You can look at these statistics at www.fbi.gov. Why should anybody be afforded the oppurtunity to make such a drastic mistake as to kill someone because of their ignorance or because they couldnt control themselves. In the military you are ordered that you will not get a DUI. It is easy to not get a DUI. If you dont drive while drinking, you cannot get a DUI. Period. If you dont drive drunk, you cannot kill someone because you were driving drunk. People already know this, but as an LPO I have encountered people, especially junior people, who are not scared to get a DUI because the civilian system is for the most part flawed and the punishment isn't as bad as one would think, especially for your first offense. The military side of the house is a joke as well. Restriction is a complete joke, and people know they can recover their careers after an eval cycle and not have the navy touch their money through allotments. So you cannot tell me that the system is "tough" on DUI's, because if the system as a whole was, you would not have repeat DUI's as often as they happen.

Bottom line is, the navy could seriously curb DUI's by treating them like a true crime. Maybe people would honestly think twice about driving after drinking if the punishment was severe. It is a shame that is how you have to treat the situation, but I will be damned if an immature, and I also use the word moron, decided to get drunk and hits my wife and family while driving down the freeway. The whole situation could be avoided by not drinking and driving. So no I dont agree with you, and it is a shame that you are only concerned about someone's career and not your families safety on the roads, or the other people on the road who have done nothing wrong but drive somewhere.

If you cannot follow a simple order, and a moral obligation, to not drive after drinking, then maybe you shouldn't be that guy in combat that everyone is depending on to possibly save their lives.

So, agree to disagree.

 

[HH-60H]

Well, I am glad phrogpilot73's command was flexible and retained him. I know him and he was a great asset to the USMC....

even if he is a tool

If you cannot follow a simple order, and a moral obligation, to not drive after drinking, then maybe you shouldn't be that guy in combat that everyone is depending on to possibly save their lives.

Wow, it sounds like you are perfect. You have never disobeyed an order from your Chief or LPO, even a little bit? I find that hard to believe, beside WTF do you know about combat? How much green time do you have? I am sure that it (all 0 hours) pales in comparison with the guy who has a DUI

 

[phrogpilot73]

Again, agree to disagree... words... So, agree to disagree.

First, you are incorrect with your statistics. In 2006 there were 17,034 murders in the US, and 13,470 fatalities associated with DUIs.

Second, you're missing my point. DUI = Driving Under the Influence. What is "Influence"? Can you honestly tell me that you've never had 1 beer, waited an hour or so, then driven somewhere? You keep saying "drunk". Drunk is not the same for the same people. For an alcoholic who drinks a 12 pack a night, they may blow .09 and have better motor skills, reflexes, and mental capacity then someone who's only had one beer and blown a .05. That's why every case must be judged individually.

Well, I am glad phrogpilot73's command was flexible and retained him. I know him and he was a great asset to the USMC....

even if he is a tool

Wow, it sounds like you are perfect. You have never disobeyed an order from your Chief or LPO, even a little bit? I find that hard to believe, beside WTF do you know about combat? How much green time do you have? I am sure that it (all 0 hours) pales in comparison with the guy who has a DUI

Thanks for the vote of confidence, and nice use of the smiley!

We log in red in the USMC...

3 deployments, 21 months deployed, 357 hours of combat time, 8 air medals, HAC, Section Lead, Division Lead, Assault Flight Lead, TERFI, NSI, WTI, FAC. All AFTER the DUI arrest. It seems that I did turn out to be an asset, and that I was reliable in combat. But it never would have happened if k_smittay would have had his way. Thank God he wasn't my CO...

 

[DeltaVictorFC2]

wow smittay, you sure do sound like a horrible leader. I feel badly for your division....someone who wont go to bat for them from what it sounds like. I bet they dont feel like lifting a finger for you either. I bet you are the type that would roll over on a junior sailor to save your own ass as well. Ill go so far as to say you even sound like a seahawks fan. For shame smittay, for shame.

 

[user2176]

Second, you're missing my point. DUI = Driving Under the Influence. What is "Influence"? Can you honestly tell me that you've never had 1 beer, waited an hour or so, then driven somewhere? You keep saying "drunk". Drunk is not the same for the same people. For an alcoholic who drinks a 12 pack a night, they may blow .09 and have better motor skills, reflexes, and mental capacity then someone who's only had one beer and blown a .05. That's why every case must be judged individually.

We had a guy just get busted for a .314 at the gate. The scary thing was he appeared completely (well almost) sober. If he had not been for a random test the MAs won't have know the difference. And this was at 0830 in the morning.

The command didn't kick him out. I thought that they should get this guy some help first and if he still can't turn things around then give him the big chicken dinner. And that's what the CO did. He did give him the max, short of kicking him out, but as all of his superiors said he's an awesome tech. So I also disagree with k_smittay, nothing is black and white.

However on the flip side, I can't see rewarding these people at the expense of your top performers. I've seen people with very, very recent NJPs (DUI with major property damage involved) being but up for prestigious awards. In my view, for those that work hard and work hard to stay out of trouble, it comes off as a slap in the face.

Now everyone is welcome to debate the rational behind giving awards to personnel after they have a major screw up versus personnel just as qualified without a recent NJP.

 

[k_smittay]

wow smittay, you sure do sound like a horrible leader. I feel badly for your division....someone who wont go to bat for them from what it sounds like. I bet they dont feel like lifting a finger for you either. I bet you are the type that would roll over on a junior sailor to save your own ass as well. Ill go so far as to say you even sound like a seahawks fan. For shame smittay, for shame.

No my sister was killed by a drunk driver. So I have different feelings I guess. Like I said, agree to disagree. To bad you all get so personal. I guess you wont understand.

 

[OneBadSSS]

wow smittay, you sure do sound like a horrible leader. I feel badly for your division....someone who wont go to bat for them from what it sounds like. I bet they dont feel like lifting a finger for you either. I bet you are the type that would roll over on a junior sailor to save your own ass as well. Ill go so far as to say you even sound like a seahawks fan. For shame smittay, for shame.

I agree with Delta, you need to change your attitude ASAP if you expect to be a successful and respected officer! No blue shirt will respect an officer who's only out to serve himself and no one else. I think my current divo said it best: "I don't need to kiss ass and save ass to be a good officer and leader, all I have to do is help my guys in any way I can. Their performance at work is a direct reflection of my leadership abilities and is all my CoC needs to see to know what I'm made of!!"

A wise man he is, and definitely someone I have the utmost respect for and look up to! Think about that!

 

[OneBadSSS]

No my sister was killed by a drunk driver. So I have different feelings I guess. Like I said, agree to disagree. To bad you all get so personal. I guess you wont understand.

Well my condolences for your loss, that is a real tragedy. However, that doesn't give you the right to pin the blame of your sister's killer on every sailor and/or Marine that gets a DUI...

 

[k_smittay]

Well my condolences for your loss, that is a real tragedy. However, that doesn't give you the right to pin the blame of your sister's killer on every sailor and/or Marine that gets a DUI...

How am I pinning blame on anyone?? All I am saying is that is an AVOIDABLE tragedy. Hold your people to a higher standard. Period. It is a shame that you think it is OK for someone to go out and make this sort of mistake. It isnt a mistake as far as im concerned. Not paying your bills is a mistake, deciding to sleep in when you should be at work is a mistake, letting others do work for you is a mistake. Going out, drinking, then driving is a crime. Period. People make mistakes, I am well aware of this. Does being stupid and getting a DUI, or worse killing someone, then writing it off as a mistake make it ok? NO. Grow the fuck up and hold your people accountable for their actions. Good people make mistakes, FINE, but maybe if you scare them away from the mistake it wont happen. It is a shame you guys feel like this. I hope you never have to deal with everything that is involved in a DUI fatality.

 

[BigIron]

....but as an LPO I have encountered people, especially junior people, who are not scared to get a DUI because the civilian system is for the most part flawed and the punishment isn't as bad as one would think, especially for your first offense.

Have you seen the fines and jail time for a VA DUI since July 2007?

The military side of the house is a joke as well. Restriction is a complete joke, and people know they can recover their careers after an eval cycle and not have the navy touch their money through allotments. So you cannot tell me that the system is "tough" on DUI's, because if the system as a whole was, you would not have repeat DUI's as often as they happen.

I think that depends on your command. My command will restrict you to the ship on pre-trial restriction for summary court martial. After the court martial, the sailor can expect to spend some time in the brig. That doesn't include the reduction in rank and money taken away.

Bottom line is, the Navy could seriously curb DUI's by treating them like a true crime. Maybe people would honestly think twice about driving after drinking if the punishment was severe. It is a shame that is how you have to treat the situation, but I will be damned if an immature, and I also use the word moron, decided to get drunk and hits my wife and family while driving down the freeway. The whole situation could be avoided by not drinking and driving....

As a husband and father I concur with you on this point.

 

[k_smittay]

Have you seen the fines and jail time for a VA DUI since July 2007? .

Yes I have seen the fines.. Did you know that those extra fines and fees with VA laws only apply to VA residents? I am not a virginia resident, so if I was to get a speeding ticket or DUI.. the "extra" wouldnt apply to me.

 

[k_smittay]

Yes I have seen the fines.. Did you know that those extra fines and fees with VA laws only apply to VA residents? I am not a virginia resident, so if I was to get a speeding ticket or DUI.. the "extra" wouldnt apply to me.

And just for you guys that need sources, you can read it in black and white. The VA code itself.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/publications/hb_3202.pdf

 

[phrogpilot73]

No my sister was killed by a drunk driver. So I have different feelings I guess. Like I said, agree to disagree. To bad you all get so personal. I guess you wont understand.

I sympathize with you on your loss, and can understand your feelings on the matter, and I will agree to disagree. However, if you do get a commission I would caution you about being so black-and-white, even on this issue. Consider this scenario:

You've got a young 3rd class in your division that is a shining star, one of your top performers, working on his bachelors degree in his offtime, community service, you name it. He has 3-4 beers with dinner, decides he shouldn't drive and waits an hour and then feels nothing, so he heads home. He gets pulled over for having a head light out, and that's it. Passes all the field sobriety tests, but blows a .08. Obviously, great potential and great past performance - but you shoot him down. I don't agree with that, and all I'm saying is that each individual is evaluated on his merits. The CO is going to evaluate him on his merits, and when you're in there talking shit about him when he's getting NJP'd, it'll probably make the CO wonder. And he might not be wondering about the 3rd class, but you. Just food for thought.

 

[k_smittay]

First, you are incorrect with your statistics. In 2006 there were 17,034 murders in the US, and 13,470 fatalities associated with DUIs.

Oh I apologize. I used the 2005 statistics. Not that is justifies it one bit.