Solo versus PIC

[A4sForever]

....My non-expert advice is to keep the hours the same, that way there is a lot less work to make your military hours conform to how different carriers want it.

That's expert advice, whether or not you know it. We used to have only personal logbooks -- the 'official' WAS the 'personal' -- and that's where, why, and how some of the fat-fingering took place ...

A LOT of Navy & Marine jet-jocks used to add a .2 or so to the yellow sheet to keep up w/ their multi-motor, AF, and civie-street brethren in the total time department and thus the 'fat-finger' became 'official' ... but it didn't do too much for mandatory aircraft maintenance & inspections based on total airframe time.

And remember: it's always easier to keep your stories (and logbooks) straight when you don't have to remember which lie went where ...

I had to take & PASS two polygraphs for two different airlines ...

The horror. The humanity.....

 

[MasterBates]

Does the USN have an equivalent of the AFORMS thingamabob Hacker posted about?

I've been on multiple logging systems in my brief career (TIMS, TIS, NALCOMIS, SHARP4/4.1/5/5.1 and the one we used in the HTs which escapes me) and I'm not sure if they all talk to each other.

 

[Gatordev]

Does the USN have an equivalent of the AFORMS thingamabob Hacker posted about?

I've been on multiple logging systems in my brief career (TIMS, TIS, NALCOMIS, SHARP4/4.1/5/5.1 and the one we used in the HTs which escapes me) and I'm not sure if they all talk to each other.

All that stuff dumps into a master database that NAVAIR keeps. How accurate it is is up for debate, but I'd guess fairly accurate since everything has been electronic for your career. I'm not sure how you get a hold of the info, but Ops probably has the contact info. I know of one guy who had to have his data ordered to resurrect a lost logbook.

 

[HAL Pilot]

If you log your military flights in your civilian logbook and properly annotate it with remarks, etc. you can easily explain the difference between your "official" military forms and your logbook.

I use an electronic logbook called Logbook Pro. Before getting hired at Hawaiian and during my long furlough, I was very meticulous about logging (unlike now where I put one entry for the month based on the company tracked flight times). Logbook Pro has columns for block out, takeoff, land and block in times. It automatically does the math and with a couple of mouse clicks, you can easily have it compute your total time either civilian or military style.

If you use a paper logbook, you can always make a separate columns - TT/Military and TT/civilian. Put in both figures and annotate out/off/on/in times in the remarks. When the interviewer asks "Why are you showing 2000 hours in the space shuttle yet the Navy says you only have 1600?" you can answer "The TT/military is based on off/on times and matches my military log. Since civilian aviation logs out/in block time, that is shown in the TT/civilian column. I listed the TT/civilian figure on my resume as that follows the logging conventions of the airlines. Both my TT figures are derived from the out/off/on/in times listed in the remarks." I got this in January 2002 straight from the Southwest People Department (Lindsey Lang) when she came to my 737 type rating course to discuss the SWA hiring process and how to make yourself more competitive (the type rating school has a very close relationship with SWA). She said that while SWA does allow a conversion factor (+ 0.3 hours per flight), they would prefer actual numbers when available.

Further, if the airline you are applying for does not allow a conversion factor, then you are making yourself less competitive. There are the minimums to apply for the job, the minimums to actually get the interview, and the minimums that make you competitive to get hired. Your military time might meet the minimums to apply or interview, but not be competitive for actually getting the job. A lot of airlines use a point system for hiring with everything (interview, sim test, hours, psych test, etc) all getting a value. Your 1500 civilian logged time for your 1200 military hours might get a better value and make your overall score better. If you have logged your military time in a civilian log with appropriate remarks to justify your TT entry, you can legitimately list the higher figure and be more competitive.

If you are applying for a corporate job, many of their flight hour requirements are insurance company driven. They are going to have a lot better insurance rates if they can put on the their insurance form that you have 1500 hours instead of 1200 hours. Insurance companies are known for asking for copies of logbooks and flight records. The brokers do not understand military flight time, especially first pilot versus second pilot versus special crew. If it is too hard, corporate flight departments won't look at you. They want easy. One logbook is easy.

The problems is when there is no consistency and someone tries to start logging it this way half-way through a military career. They apply the conversion factor to those flights prior to making this decision and use actual times after. Then eyebrows are raised and questions asked. That is why I actually advocate either logging your military time in your civilian logbook from day one or not doing it at all.

Having said all this, of all the interviews I did working my way to Hawaiian and while on furlough, the only places that did any in depth logbook checks during the interview were Scenic and SWA. I went to every interview expecting one and prepared for one, but these were it. Both airlines would not just throw you out of the interview but rather ask you why/how you came to a figure. If you could reasonably defend it, then they were happy.

Both the airlines and FAA also known that logging flight time is a "self-certifying" paperwork drill. They have no real way of verifying/proving the vast majority of the time in a logbook. That is why they accept reasonable explanations during logbook reviews. It is very obvious to them if a pilot is being truthful/reasonable or trying to inflate his experience.

I have formed my logging opinion based on many interviews both corporate and airline, many airline hiring discussions with former military pilots now at majors, advice given many friends by airline interview prep courses/counselors, and talking to guys that sit on interview/hiring committees.

 

[HAL Pilot]

The biggest problem with "pre-arming" your military hours in your personal logbook is that .... you are IN EFFECT not being truthful by adding hours to your ALL READY modified hours.

No, if you log it in a civilian logbook, you don't apply the conversion factor. Plus when I was active with the Navy, my Navy logbook never matched the quarterly/yearly NALCOMIS summaries. Neither did most of the other guys in the squadron. It might be better now and the AF might be better, but these "official" records were incomplete/inaccurate. I also know many guys who military logbooks were lost by Operations. What then?

I personally know of someone who was dismissed from his SWA interview because his military time in his personal logbook differed from what was in his AFORMS official transcript.

Frumby can better answer this if he is around as he flies for SWA but I got their interview prep at my type school by their People Department representative and from a SWA Captain involved in their hiring process. There is more to the story than this. SWA is very good about asking any applicant to explain these type of difference. What I posted above would make this a non-issue with them.

I am not advocating padding flight time or lying in any form. I am advocating making yourself look as good as possible.

 

[MasterBates]

Not to revive a zombie thread, but is .3 added to military time per flight the accepted "conversion"?

And do I use it on the Total Time and AC Commander (Part 1 PIC) only, add it to the Part 61PIC/SIC as well?

I'm guessing night would be treated same as total, but instrument time would not be affected?

(yeah, I'm getting my logbooks in order to start chucking out resumes into the system this week)

 

[HAL Pilot]

Don't just automatically add .3. Some airlines use that, some use other numbers and some don't allow any correction at all. You have to read their applications to figure it out.

Of course, if you can document the difference in flight time via a civilian ligbook that uses block out to block in vice the military takeoff to landing, use the civilian logbook number.

 

[FrankTheTank]

You have to read their applications to figure it out.

What he said. Many different conversions out there.

 

[Postal]

Not to revive a zombie thread, but is .3 added to military time per flight the accepted "conversion"?

And do I use it on the Total Time and AC Commander (Part 1 PIC) only, add it to the Part 61PIC/SIC as well?

I'm guessing night would be treated same as total, but instrument time would not be affected?

(yeah, I'm getting my logbooks in order to start chucking out resumes into the system this week)

Been going through the drill of getting my logbooks in order. Spent 3 days entering into an electronic spreadsheet in excel . Pain in the a$$ but found 27 mistakes throughout my career. Funny thing is that all the math mistakes resulted in only a one hour difference in the end. I documented all the mistakes at the end of the spreadsheet so I can back up my correct times. For the conversion factor, just added a formula to add a .2 or .3 for each sortie. Now that I am writing this I need to make a new column for PIC sorties on top of total sorties to get the proper conversion. For applications I am putting down time without the conversion, but will have the number available with the conversion if I am lucky enough to get an interview.

 

[Gatordev]

Resurrecting the resurrection...

Based off what I've read in this thread (again) and a little reading of the FARs (but probably not enough), I'm trying to determine a couple of logging questions. Here's some details with questions to follow.

I've decided to keep my military and civilian logbooks separate. I know it's not required, but it's just easier for me. I also don't care about the airlines, but I would like to be able to have a factual number of both civilian and .mil time to give to an employer in a few years. So here's the questions (or confirmations, maybe):

1. I flew in a single-piloted SEL plane with my dad. We flew for 1.0, VFR. Based on what I've read here, only one of us can log PIC for a single flight. As such, he'd log PIC and I could log TT, correct?

2. Now let's say we made a stop (shutdown and got out). Now we could each log .5 PIC and each log 1.0 TT, correct?

3. New day, new flight. I act as his safety pilot for the entire flight. I still can only log TT (and/or SIC), correct? Is there any real reason I SHOULD log SIC and not JUST TT?

I'm sure I'll have another question or two, but trying to keep it simple for now.

 

[armada1651]

3. New day, new flight. I act as his safety pilot for the entire flight. I still can only log TT (and/or SIC), correct? Is there any real reason I SHOULD log SIC and not JUST TT?

I was always under the impression that you could only log SIC in an aircraft not certified for single-pilot operation (i.e., an aircraft requiring somebody to be SIC). Never having flown such an aircraft, I'll defer to those with experience on the matter.

 

[Gatordev]

I was always under the impression that you could only log SIC in an aircraft not certified for single-pilot operation (i.e., an aircraft requiring somebody to be SIC). Never having flown such an aircraft, I'll defer to those with experience on the matter.

If you go back and read the thread, it's covered earlier (safety pilot can equal SIC time in a single-pilot aircraft). I just wasn't sure if there's a "need" to log it.

 

[ryan1234]

(safety pilot can equal SIC time in a single-pilot aircraft).

Negative

You can log whatever you want, but time towards a rating, civilian job, etc would only be valid under these circumstances:

Civilian Total Time is either:

A) Acting as PIC (i.e. Dual Given, Safety Pilot, Solo, PIC of the flight, etc)
B) PIC - Physical, aircraft control manipulation (Dual Received if rated in aircraft or pilot under the hood, requiring a safety pilot)... any time you have your hands on the stick (sts).
C) Dual Received without being rated in the aircraft
D) SIC is only for aircraft requiring a Second in Command (a safety pilot would be a PIC)... this mostly pertains to large aircraft (CE650, B737, etc). SIC time can only be logged if rated in the category (not necessarily an SIC type rating). You can't log SIC time in a BE90 because it is certified for one pilot and doesn't require an extra crew member or type rating (there is some debate about 135 operations requiring an SIC on opspecs... but that's a different can of worms). It also depends on if the PIC has a Single Pilot Type Rating, if the aircraft requires a type rating. A CE500 can be flown single pilot, however if the PIC doesn't have a Single Pilot Type Rating, he would need an SIC.

In your above situation.... In a single engine aircraft, only one person would log PIC and Total Time. If you physically manipulated the controls, then you would log PIC and TT. Both amounts would be the same (i.e. 0.5 hours PIC and 0.5 hours TT). If you dad was a flight instructor, then you could both log PIC and TT... his would be Dual Given and your's Dual Received, but since your are rated in a Single Engine Airplane... it could be PIC time.

Don't know if any of that makes sense... but there is a little bit of misinformation in some of the previous posts on the thread.

 

[Gatordev]

Negative

You can log whatever you want, but time towards a rating, civilian job, etc would only be valid under these circumstances:

None of this time is going towards any kind of rating, just logging time spent in an aircraft while performing a function other than ballast.

In your above situation.... In a single engine aircraft, only one person would log PIC and Total Time. If you physically manipulated the controls, then you would log PIC and TT. Both amounts would be the same (i.e. 0.5 hours PIC and 0.5 hours TT). If you dad was a flight instructor, then you could both log PIC and TT... his would be Dual Given and your's Dual Received, but since your are rated in a Single Engine Airplane... it could be PIC time.

AOPA disagrees to a point. They actually just sent out one of their Q&As in their ePilot about being able to log "time" as a safety pilot (or even co-pilot), even if you're not rated in the plane. It's certainly not PIC, but they were saying it can still be logged as TT, instrument time, etc. Here's what they said (albeit without an FAR cited).

Question: I’m a commercial pilot with an instrument rating and was recently offered a right-seat position with a friend who has to make a long trip in a twin turboprop. She is fully qualified and legal to operate the twin in a single-pilot capacity; however, she is not a multiengine instructor and I do not yet hold a multiengine rating. I would hate to make this trip with her and not be able to log anything at all. Can I legally log any flight experience in this airplane?

Answer: You can log anything you want, but keep in mind that you must be able to delineate this time from other time that will be used toward a new rating, certificate, or currency. You can log this entire flight as flight experience; however, you cannot log the flight time as pilot in command or second in command.

Your logbook should allow you to log this under the Total Flight Time or Duration of Flight and Multiengine Land columns without recording it under PIC or SIC. With this in mind, you could also record the flight as complex, high-performance, actual instrument, cross-country, and night experience, if any of these items apply. You will also want to log a detailed description of exactly what you learned, and the systems you operated during the flight in your description entry in the logbook. Just remember, you cannot log this flight as PIC or SIC, nor can you log it as dual instruction received.

I do get what you're saying about not using it towards a rating now that I've reread that. But here's what's confusing me:

A) Acting as PIC (i.e. Dual Given, Safety Pilot, Solo, PIC of the flight, etc)

So if I'm acting as the safety pilot (as you wrote it), wouldn't that mean I'd then log PIC? I'm just trying to clarify, not arguing.

 

[HAL Pilot]

1. I flew in a single-piloted SEL plane with my dad. We flew for 1.0, VFR. Based on what I've read here, only one of us can log PIC for a single flight. As such, he'd log PIC and I could log TT, correct?

As only one pilot is required, only one of you can log time, both PIC & TT. So if you flew, you log PIC & TT. If your Dad flew, he logs it. Non-flying guy logs nothing.

2. Now let's say we made a stop (shutdown and got out). Now we could each log .5 PIC and each log 1.0 TT, correct?

If you each flew a leg, then 0.5 PIC & 0.5 TT each.

3. New day, new flight. I act as his safety pilot for the entire flight. I still can only log TT (and/or SIC), correct? Is there any real reason I SHOULD log SIC and not JUST TT?

If one of you are going to be under the hood, there are now two pilots required to operate the aircraft. Both log TT. the pilot under the hood can log FAR Part 61 PIC as the "sole manipulator" or as the FAR Part 1 PIC. The safety pilot can either log SIC or PIC if it was decided he was FAR Part 1 PIC. Put in the remarks section you were a safety pilot if you log the SIC to show why the second crew member was neccessary.

PIC defined by FAR Part 1 is the aircraft commander responsible for the flight.
PIC defined by FAR Part 61 is whoever is manipulating the controls.
To log FAR Part 1 PIC you must be qualified in the aircraft. I.e if it requires a MEL, have an MEL. If it requires a type, have the type. If you are not qualified for FAR Part 1 PIC when a safety pilot, log it as SIC.

Or use that CFI you receieved from being a T-34 IP and log dual recieved in your Dad's book & Dual Given in yours, and you both can log the PIC & TT.

Just remember, most log books do not breakout Part 1 versus Part 61 PIC. If you fill out an airline application, they want only Part 1 PIC.