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So much for no "forced" Nukes...

Van

The Shipmate formerly known as AT2.
They already force all male STA-21 Nuke OC's to go subs. If you are a nuke selectee you sign a statement of understanding stating that you WILL go subs if they need you too

They want memebers from all comissioning methods on all platforms. They don't want a situation where all officers in ANY community come from the enlisted side. A certain percentage needs to come from other methods.

Like I said, I understand the diversity thing. If they are short a rather large number of candidates from one source then yea, give some of them their 2nd or 3rd choice. However, If they are only short 20-30 slots or so it's not going to change the diversity so much that ALL the Officers are "prior Enlisted" (and I use that term rather loosely for a Baby Nuke, their only "Naval Experience" is in school).

The Navy bought the educations of both NROTC and USNA midshipmen. The Navy says "We need people for this". Why should they be above needs of service and STA-21 OC's the only ones subjected to it?

I completely understand that the needs of the Navy come first and that one source shouldn't be singled out for "punishment" or whatever. However, if there are people that WANT to do it, why deny them and then FORCE someone else to? I haven't met one Enlisted Nuke that was forced to be one. They chose their enlisted rate. Even if they are forced to apply for STA-21 as a Baby Nuke, they are staying in the field they CHOSE in the first place. Besides, it's no problem for any STA-21 selectee to deny their acceptance and stay Enlisted, and there is always an alternate chomping at the bit to fill that void.

Again, I'm talking about small numbers, not a gross undermanning.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
They already force all male STA-21 Nuke OC's to go subs. If you are a nuke selectee you sign a statement of understanding stating that you WILL go subs if they need you too

They want memebers from all comissioning methods on all platforms. They don't want a situation where all officers in ANY community come from the enlisted side. A certain percentage needs to come from other methods.

The Navy bought the educations of both NROTC and USNA midshipmen. The Navy says "We need people for this". Why should they be above needs of service and STA-21 OC's the only ones subjected to it?

Are they? So far 3/30 of my classmates in my company (3/24) male ones have been "drafted" into subs on top of the ones that already volunteered. Sure seems like the nuke "draft" is in full force here.
 

EM1

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit
Are they? So far 3/30 of my classmates in my company (3/24) male ones have been "drafted" into subs on top of the ones that already volunteered. Sure seems like the nuke "draft" is in full force here.

Why do you insist on calling it a "draft?" You volunteered to go to the USNA. I suppose if someone was really upset about getting "drafted" into the submarine force, they could always DOR and enlist in lieu of paying back their tuition. They gave an OC that option here (he thought he should be allowed to go SWO nuke, but they needed sub guys - he declined that option and will be on a sub shortly). But I think it's made pretty clear at all phases of training and recruiting that the needs of the Navy always come first. It may not personally thrill someone that they don't get their first choice of community, but that's not what being a Naval Officer is all about. It is an office of public service, and in our case it's an office we volunteered for, the draft ended in 1973.
 

Cleonard19

Member
Contributor
I understand that the Navy wants a diversified Officer field and all that, but if they are short X number of Nuke slots from the Academy, ROTC, OCS, etc. why don't they get them from somewhere else? STA-21 seems like a good source for Nuke O's. Half of my NSI class was "Baby Nukes" fresh from A-school or prototype that had been voluntold to apply for the STA-21 Nuke Option. I'm sure the Nuke quota could be met by grabbing up a few more of these candidates. They wouldn't have to go through the whole interview process becuase they are academically adept and they chose to be Enlisted Nukes. Give them the opportunity to be an Nuke O? That would sound good to me if I was a Nuke and had no idea what life in the fleet is like for that community.

I'm pretty sure STA-21 nukes still have to interview with the Admiral. I know a couple of people who got nuke option and then ended up not being nukes after their interview. One ended up pilot, the other failed his commissioning physical anyways.
 

Cleonard19

Member
Contributor
why do you insist on calling it a "draft?" you volunteered to go to the usna. I suppose if someone was really upset about getting "drafted" into the submarine force, they could always dor and enlist in lieu of paying back their tuition.


+10000
 

Van

The Shipmate formerly known as AT2.
I'm pretty sure STA-21 nukes still have to interview with the Admiral. I know a couple of people who got nuke option and then ended up not being nukes after their interview. One ended up pilot, the other failed his commissioning physical anyways.

I believe you are correct about the STA-21 Nuke options having interviews before commission, not sure if the circumstances are the same though. My point is; a Nuke-select doesn't look at an interview the same way. To them it is just a check in the block. For everyone else it's like being forced to playing russian roullette with their career after being selected for something else. The only OC's that talked about Nuke interviews were prior Nukes, but selected for Pilot. They were much more vocal about having to do the interview because they didn't want to go Nuke and were understandably frustrated during that time, but they ended up commissioning as SNAs.
 

Cleonard19

Member
Contributor
For everyone else it's like being forced to playing russian roullette with their career after being selected for something else. The only OC's that talked about Nuke interviews were prior Nukes, but selected for Pilot. They were much more vocal about having to do the interview because they didn't want to go Nuke and were understandably frustrated during that time, but they ended up commissioning as SNAs.

Thats exactly the point though. You weren't forced to play the game. You willingly sat down at the table the second you took that ROTC Scholarship.

And I would hardly argue that you have much of a career at all until you've made it through either program.

Being selected for pilot is like a handshake. Its a firm offer thats not in writing. Until its in writing, it don't mean shit. You volunteered knowing full well that there was a chance you would be going nuke. If you had absolutely zero desire to go nuke, you should have thought twice about signing the contract.
 

EM1

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit
You volunteered knowing full well that there was a chance you would be going nuke. If you had absolutely zero desire to go nuke, you should have thought twice about signing the contract.

:icon_zbee
On the bright side they're paying out $30K a year bonuses once you qualify engineer. Not that it makes it all ok, but I think some cash can temper the pain a bit.
 

JonDW7

New Member
Notice how the only people who are vocally supporting the nuke draft on aw (and yes, it is a draft) were previously an EM. You are correct in the fact that we did volunteer to serve our country as Naval officers. The plain and simple fact though is that the submarine force has ALWAYS been all volunteer. When the individuals who were drafted for nuke volunteered to go to USNA or join NROTC, they presumably did so with the knowledge that subs are all volunteer. This is no longer the case.

I really feel like the quality of the submarine force will go down if this continues. Retention will plummet, and this solution is really only benefitting the Navy in the short term. I mean think about it, forcing an individual into a community that they have absolutely no desire to serve in, and then hoping that they sign on to get kicked in the nuts again after their initial commitment is over? Not happening...
 

Cleonard19

Member
Contributor
Notice how the only people who are vocally supporting the nuke draft on aw (and yes, it is a draft) were previously an EM. You are correct in the fact that we did volunteer to serve our country as Naval officers. The plain and simple fact though is that the submarine force has ALWAYS been all volunteer. When the individuals who were drafted for nuke volunteered to go to USNA or join NROTC, they presumably did so with the knowledge that subs are all volunteer. This is no longer the case.

I really feel like the quality of the submarine force will go down if this continues. Retention will plummet, and this solution is really only benefitting the Navy in the short term. I mean think about it, forcing an individual into a community that they have absolutely no desire to serve in, and then hoping that they sign on to get kicked in the nuts again after their initial commitment is over? Not happening...



Submarines is volunteer, nuke is not. tough shit. deal with it. And even then, nuke officers can be forced nuke. Responsibility of the commission.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Why do you insist on calling it a "draft?" You volunteered to go to the USNA. I suppose if someone was really upset about getting "drafted" into the submarine force, they could always DOR and enlist in lieu of paying back their tuition. They gave an OC that option here (he thought he should be allowed to go SWO nuke, but they needed sub guys - he declined that option and will be on a sub shortly). But I think it's made pretty clear at all phases of training and recruiting that the needs of the Navy always come first. It may not personally thrill someone that they don't get their first choice of community, but that's not what being a Naval Officer is all about. It is an office of public service, and in our case it's an office we volunteered for, the draft ended in 1973.

It's the common term here, thus I use it. Even the officers doing here often refer to it as that. And while you're right on a lot of things, we don't have the option of choosing to go enlisted or paying back; the SECNAV is the one who decides for us and there seems to be no consistent trend really. And I suppose it got its name as "the draft" because the needs of the Navy are making someone do something they would rather not do... Volunteer, yeah, we all did, I agree, but inevitably you can't deny that some people don't want to do it and yet are being forced to. I know that's in the contract, but it's going to get bad vibes. And it's not necessarily that people don't want to do it - plenty of people have been denied nuke that had it high on their choices. It's just frustrating when you're here for 4 years and you're told that hard work and good performance will get you where you want to be, then some of the hardest workers with the best grades are being forced into something they did not want (or would rather prefer not to do). When you make people do something in the name of service, wouldn't that be called a "draft?" We're arguing semantics here: point is people are forced to do things they don't want to. Yes, it's part of our service, but if you're going to argue semantics, don't call nukes or subs "all volunteer."
 

Van

The Shipmate formerly known as AT2.
Thats exactly the point though. You weren't forced to play the game. You willingly sat down at the table the second you took that ROTC Scholarship.

I'm not talking about the Academy, NROTC, OCS, or STA-21 Core. Those sources require a "dream sheet" for designator and there is no certainty you will get the designator you want.

And I would hardly argue that you have much of a career at all until you've made it through either program.

That is a stereotypical Nuke response. Is it impossible for you to understand the context in which I used the word "career"? Let me clarify for you: By career, I mean career field, as in designator, not their entire time of service.

Being selected for pilot is like a handshake. Its a firm offer thats not in writing. Until its in writing, it don't mean shit. You volunteered knowing full well that there was a chance you would be going nuke. If you had absolutely zero desire to go nuke, you should have thought twice about signing the contract.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen anything in writing that says a STA-21 Pilot Option selectee may have to go Nuclear because they were a prior Enlisted Nuke. It does say in writing that STA-21 Pilot options are selected as SNAs.

Directly from the STA-21 website: "While STA-21 will continue to provide the opportunity for Pilot designation as other URL designators, graduates of STA-21 Pilot Option will be designated only as Student Naval Aviators (SNA) (Designator 1390)." The instruction says the same thing.

Sorry, nothing there about the possibility of going nuke. I didn't volunteer "knowing full well" that there was a chance I would go nuke, and I'm pretty sure that the other STA-21 Pilot options didn't either. As long as the selectee maintains they requirements for SNA, and there isn't any drastic, unforseen circumstances, they will be an SNA.

But obviously I'm not nearly as dedicated or honorable as you are because I'm not willing to just bend over and spread 'em if they try to force me into another designator after having already been selected. I obviously didn't work my butt off and do my homework to give myself the best possible chance of living a childhood dream. Get your facts straight before implying that I'm not dedicated to service.
 

Cleonard19

Member
Contributor
I'm not talking about the Academy, NROTC, OCS, or STA-21 Core. Those sources require a "dream sheet" for designator and there is no certainty you will get the designator you want.


But obviously I'm not nearly as dedicated or honorable as you are because I'm not willing to just bend over and spread 'em if they try to force me into another designator after having already been selected. I obviously didn't work my butt off and do my homework to give myself the best possible chance of living a childhood dream. Get your facts straight before implying that I'm not dedicated to service.


1) This thread is about the academy.

2) I never implied that, don't put words in my mouth.
 

Calculon

It's Calculon! Hit the deck!
688's will never be coed. Virginia Class will likely never be coed. If they want to integrate fast boats, it will take an entire new class designed for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've remember hearing from someone that the Virginia class was actually designed with the possibility of coed quarters in mind so it won't require a new class... 688's definitely look out of the question though
 
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