Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.

[insanebikerboy]

No. No it's not. It's just a CHEAP implementation. The Romeo pilots I work with were just complaining the other day about the patterns they have to fly to maintain MTS coverage, whereas that's much less of an issue for us. In fact, it was really helpful to be able to look under the bird at targets on my deployments. For a fraction of the cost of a FLIR ball, a couple of crafty engineers could have designed a REAL "stow" mechanism that flips that bitch up and out of the way when desired instead of the existing mechanism which simply spins it around and misuses the word "stow."

Or, they could've made it super freaking simple and installed it on a gooseneck mount.

To be honest though, figure-8 patterns with an up-slung FLIR isn't rocket science, it just means you have to actually think about the pattern instead of just flying a big ass circle.

 

[Hair Warrior]

He called my CO in and admitted he had no idea we had been providing footage this whole time as well

Where is your squadron AI, or really any 1830 in CVIC? That’s their dang job: to leverage organic ISR collection, attributing reports to the source platform. All joint intel doctrine is built around sourcing - which inherently gives credit where credit is due.

I still don't really get what FIRESCOUT brings to the fight

Expendability

 

[mad dog]

How is it different than any other AW thread?

 

[ChuckMK23]

This is what I know of flying circles

 

[DanMa1156]

Where is your squadron AI, or really any 1830 in CVIC? That’s their dang job: to leverage organic ISR collection, attributing reports to the source platform. All joint intel doctrine is built around sourcing - which inherently gives credit where credit is due.

Expendability

Our squadron Intel-Os were in CVIC. Of our airwing, 2 were stuck doing shift work on the Admiral's daily intel brief. I think the other 4 did shift work processing the film footage of ordnance expenditures. Never saw a single Intel-O in DESRON, but occasionally, if there was a high interest ship we were supposed to gather photos of, the DESRON guys were spun up by an Intel O and would brief us, or tell us "hey, get more info from CVIC on this ship and come back with footage for us." We'd turn said footage into Intel. @Python1287 - this was another thing I did several times on cruise (and even once on workups... a not-so-friendly country had a spy ship off the coast made to look like a cargo tanker... had to make circles around him to get footage and to tell him very clearly - "we know who you really are, let's step away from the carrier now.")

 

[Hotdogs]

HSC overland is a stop-gap until the Army or Air Force can show up.

Expeditionary and CVW HSC is not manned, trained, nor equipped to perform more than a few days in the overland environment. Those few days of overland work are almost entirely supported from the boat. For any HSC folks here that disagree, go ask your suppo how to get an extra PUK from the wing. He'll probably laugh you out of his office.

HSC as a whole isn't set up to provide squadrons/dets overland due to the requirements that the CSG/ESG/LCS all have.

HSC-8 in Irbil was a one off and they were able to successfully support the guys there.

HSC-85 is an entirely different animal in how and where they operate that it's not really accurate to say they are traditional HSC. Hopefully the Fleet will benefit from 85 having the 60S as 85 is really good at getting airframe improvements much quicker and that will trickle out to the rest of the squadrons.

After having done this operationally for 12 straight years now, my opinion on traditional HSC is they need to go back to the old-school HS "brown-boot club". Identify a few crews, maybe 2-3, that are fully qualified for overland missions, and train the rest of the crews only in the overwater mission. Sure, some dudes will be butt-hurt but this saves flight hours, NCEA, banging up airframes, etc, and meets that stop-gap requirement the Admiral needs.

During that "stop-gap", if shit gets really bad, the Pros From Dover (the 160th) will show up out of the blue. If shit gets really, really bad, the dudes that don't even exist will show up. I've "seent it" firsthand.

The reality is that Navy is operating in a phase 0/phase 1 environment. Even if WW3 breaks out, the Navy only needs to provide rotary-wing in the littoral for a brief period, if at all. The majority of the rest of the time is dedicated to IZ defense. What does the Navy need for that? GAU-17, rockets, and a huge NCEA to get really good at it. The rest is a waste of time and resources.

It’s almost as if there’s other services, platforms, and communities that are better suited to that mission set.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Try some of the Costco (Kirkland) brand liquors. I turned my nose up to them until my neighbor from Mexico and tequila connoisseur swore by Kirkland tequila and so far, everything I've tried was better than its price point in my opinion. #gladtofinallymakeanonHSCpost

If you can find it, they have a fantastic 20-year-old Speyside Single Malt.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Touche! JB is always available at Costco for $20 / 1.75 L bottle. I drink mine with soda. So I'll leave the finer stuff to the @HAL Pilot 's of the world!

If by finer stuff you mean beer, then I agree.

For the next 3 days, that will be Kiwi beer as a spend an arduous layover in Auckland.

 

[Gatordev]

my opinion is that Fire Scout is a system of systems balancing on top of a beach ball and HSC leadership is incredibly foolish to have latched onto it (though I admit I don't know if they had a choice, but somehow HSM escaped).

You have to keep in mind how FS was being used at the time when HSC took it fully on. While it was initially used as some sort of bastardized SSC platform (which was very unsuccessful), it wasn't well thought of and to apply that same use to LCS, specifically with the -8B, was silly. But the preceding several years, the primary customer was the same group that HSC says it supports overland, and that customer was very happy with the asset. So it kind of makes sense to take a sensor that gives you a constant (and well-funded) customer. Add to that equation that HSM was trying to get rid of it, and it was a perfect match (at the time).

The Romeo pilots I work with were just complaining the other day about the patterns they have to fly to maintain MTS coverage, whereas that's much less of an issue for us. In fact, it was really helpful to be able to look under the bird at targets on my deployments.

I loved having the FLIR on the side for the same reasons, as it allowed for near 360 degree coverage, but since that's not a realistic setup as a shooter, I'm with IBB on this one. Flying figure 8's isn't that big a deal. I've noticed in the last few years that Romeo pilots have become extremely spoiled with the automation, especially since most of it works most of the time since it's new, that they lose sight of taking a step back and figuring out how to still apply fundamentals and get the mission done. But that's easier said than done when there isn't as much perspective.

 

[RobLyman]

Underslung FLIR that can see every antenna under the aircraft. Only blind spots are at he MLG. 6 degree nose up slope limit. I have pushed soft sand out of the way with it, not looking forward of course, with no damage. Our new Talon model is even smaller but still sees under the aircraft fine. We replaced 6 windshields in the crap that is in Kuwait, but not a single FLIR. Without EIBFs your going to get into BIG money. Big Army made us qual our pilots in dust without giving us a set of EIBFs. Four engines later we told them to F$%# off, we were done.

It really depends on the material you are landing in. Orange baseball field clay/dust is the worst for the engines. It melts and clogs the cooling holes in the combustion liner and power turbine rotors/stators, effectively turning a D engine into a C engine. The stuff in Kuwait has small pebbles imbedded in the mood dust and tends to break windshields. Especially with the 60M anhedral wide chord blades that blow more of the sand back toward the aircraft.

These little details are stuff you learn doing missions like this for years at a time.. "I did this once in training" is not the same. Just sayin'.

Regarding Irbil/Erbil HSC, there was a FSMT of HH-60Ms there as well doing medevac.

 

[lowflier03]

Regarding Irbil/Erbil HSC, there was a FSMT of HH-60Ms there as well doing medevac.

Good group of guys to work with, and they helped us out with some key support items; but talk about fucked up senior leadership. Lots of restrictions including not being allowed to fly outside the wire for any type of training, and limited POI pickup approval. There were also 160th, AFSOC, and other agencies operating in/near our LSA.

It seems that all of the claims and jokes about our det are being made by people who were not there. We never claimed it was CSAR, and to keep lumping it into that basket shows how ignorant most of Naval Aviation is with regards to the reality. There were some significant things about that det and the recovery, but again they are not appropriate for the UNCLAS realm and most people with access don’t care to research the actual truth data.

HSC is not resourced to do these types of things “long term” but due to our flexibility and presence with the CVW, we offer an acceptable early stopgap till long term solutions move in. (Pretty much all of the events on my previous list are examples of that.)

The powers that be did try to use Army and Marine assets to backfill us when we left. There was a big fat NO from both for several reasons.

 

[RobLyman]

Good group of guys to work with, and they helped us out with some key support items; but talk about fucked up senior leadership. Lots of restrictions including not being allowed to fly outside the wire for any type of training, and limited POI pickup approval. There were also 160th, AFSOC, and other agencies operating in/near our LSA.

It seems that all of the claims and jokes about our det are being made by people who were not there. We never claimed it was CSAR, and to keep lumping it into that basket shows how ignorant most of Naval Aviation is with regards to the reality. There were some significant things about that det and the recovery, but again they are not appropriate for the UNCLAS realm and most people with access don’t care to research the actual truth data.

HSC is not resourced to do these types of things “long term” but due to our flexibility and presence with the CVW, we offer an acceptable early stopgap till long term solutions move in. (Pretty much all of the events on my previous list are examples of that.)

The powers that be did try to use Army and Marine assets to backfill us when we left. There was a big fat NO from both for several reasons.

The strict rules mostly come with the doctrine. If you aren't careful, people try to task you with missions that are a definite NO NO for aircraft with red crosses painted on the side. Add to that 77th CAB, and then 29th CAB weren't stellar (I'll get my pee pee wacked for saying that), but you roll the dice every time you deploy. Speaking of weird rules, we weren't going to be allowed to fly with ESSS in country at first because we LOOKED like we were armed.

Depending on the time frame, you probably worked with some FL, GA and MA ARNG guys. ARNG does the majority of MEDEVAC for the Army. When you have very experienced ER nurses, EMTs, and that sort in the back of the aircraft, survival rates go way up. AD Army is trying to play catch up with the guard wrt experience in the back of the aircraft.

 

[squorch2]

During that "stop-gap", if shit gets really bad, the Pros From Dover (the 160th) will show up out of the blue. If shit gets really, really bad, the dudes that don't even exist will show up. I've "seent it" firsthand.

160th/non existent dude resourcing is part of the reason why they’re so good, and why such capabilities do not scale like sexy HSC wants them to.

 

[Pags]

HSC overland is a stop-gap until the Army or Air Force can show up.

Expeditionary and CVW HSC is not manned, trained, nor equipped to perform more than a few days in the overland environment. Those few days of overland work are almost entirely supported from the boat. For any HSC folks here that disagree, go ask your suppo how to get an extra PUK from the wing. He'll probably laugh you out of his office.

HSC as a whole isn't set up to provide squadrons/dets overland due to the requirements that the CSG/ESG/LCS all have.

HSC-8 in Irbil was a one off and they were able to successfully support the guys there.

HSC-85 is an entirely different animal in how and where they operate that it's not really accurate to say they are traditional HSC. Hopefully the Fleet will benefit from 85 having the 60S as 85 is really good at getting airframe improvements much quicker and that will trickle out to the rest of the squadrons.

After having done this operationally for 12 straight years now, my opinion on traditional HSC is they need to go back to the old-school HS "brown-boot club". Identify a few crews, maybe 2-3, that are fully qualified for overland missions, and train the rest of the crews only in the overwater mission. Sure, some dudes will be butt-hurt but this saves flight hours, NCEA, banging up airframes, etc, and meets that stop-gap requirement the Admiral needs.

During that "stop-gap", if shit gets really bad, the Pros From Dover (the 160th) will show up out of the blue. If shit gets really, really bad, the dudes that don't even exist will show up. I've "seent it" firsthand.

The reality is that Navy is operating in a phase 0/phase 1 environment. Even if WW3 breaks out, the Navy only needs to provide rotary-wing in the littoral for a brief period, if at all. The majority of the rest of the time is dedicated to IZ defense. What does the Navy need for that? GAU-17, rockets, and a huge NCEA to get really good at it. The rest is a waste of time and resources.

GREAT post

 

[robav8r]

It’s not the message you don’t like, just the messenger.

You mean like POTUS ?