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Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.
- Thread starter Wareal
- Start date
In fairness, the first time this slide was ever presented to me, it was presented to me by a front office saying "this is our Commodores' argument as to why the SWTP needs to change. We aren't given enough time to practice those mission on the top right; expect more of the overwater missions to be our focus in the future." To this day, our current Commodores do seem to echo that - the desire is that HSC is overwater, Naval combat experts.
@Python1287 - to answer your question and a few others' - HSC also says it doesn't advertise what it does well enough. I couldn't agree more. My squadron did some really neat stuff, but I was surprised to see VFA (rightly!) bragging about our 4 VFA squadrons' accomplisments, but HSC just kind of carried on without any mention of what we did anywhere significant. Even in the last couple weeks of our deployment, the DESRON had questions about video imagery he was watching, he called the HSM CO in, and he was like "oh, uh, that's from the HSC aircraft." He called my CO in and admitted he had no idea we had been providing footage this whole time as well - didn't even know we had an MTS (aka: FLIR). As for what I did? I was a mid-tour JO on cruise who made aircraft commander about halfway through it. I did mostly Plane Guard - but PG isn't making right hand turns - at least around the carrier until the last trap of your assigned cycles. Typically, between the launches and recoveries, you're going to the small boys delivering people and parts, and helping the HSM bubbas ID surface vessels and reporting them to the DESRON module. I honestly found that to be more exciting than the long bags of the MH-60R and ONLY id'ing surface (and possibly subsurface) vessels. We also had a USNS VERTREP detachment I was fortunate enough to be a part of a bit, and we also had a detachment in Kuwait; from what I remember, we got put on a CSAR alert once (we had to recall the USNS det in order to fully support the CVW and that alert). I was fortunate enough to go on both detachments and fly around the boat a lot. Once a week was VERTREP and that was a fun, half day evolution. At night, the plane guard leash is a little tighter, so you'll drop a smoke and do a night GUNEX with your gunners or a wingman, or a TACFORM card with someone, usually an HSM PQM or 2P that needs his form card signed off. A few times I got to do airborne intercepts of both RW and FW assets (think IRGCN coming to mess with the cycle or a random oil platform helicopter who had no idea he just stumbled upon some very busy airspace and needs a nudge to move away). I loved it, and I think that even coming from a time in the HTs when instructors advertised a sexier HSC than exists today, I wasn't jaded about the missions and didn't feel misled about the expectations. What I didn't realize though was when I showed up to the FRS, how many guys were suuuuper opposed to any tactics (I think this is mostly gone nowadays though). With that said, I think where a lot of JO's are worried is the direction HSC is going - seemingly grasping at straws for more missions. I still don't really get what FIRESCOUT brings to the fight, but I wasn't expeditionary and never used one; I also don't get the LCS's current role either for what it's worth.
Why do I think today's students want R's more than they did in the past? A few reasons: when I went through, people wanted Guam. Not the case anymore; it's one of the least competitive selection spots. People absolutely want Hawaii or the option to be stationed there in the future. JAX is attractive for those who want to remain in FL and hate moving. I also think that today's students are a bit nerdier than in the past and definitely can get more behind the idea of being a systems operator than a good stick; not to mention, at the time when I was in flight school, guys were in the NAAD doing air ambulance in Iraq. Today's students are being told 6th and 7th fleets will be their arenas and China, Russia, and North Korea have subs that need finding and that R's are crucial to that mission of the immediate future.
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The reality of it is that HSC could and has done some of those missions, but as stated before, the Army and Air force do this ALL THE TIME! And they practice it ALL THE TIME. The training that Apache pilots go through to stay effective is WAY beyond what HSC could possibly do while also trying to do their ass and trash mission. Same goes for Army medevac. The total missions in those mission sets that are being attributed to a whole community (HSC) over years are closer to what an Army medevac or attack company does on a single deployment. The Army and Air Force have years of constant exposure to these missions, not just once in awhile experience. You could say HSC doesn't know what they don't know.
What am I saying? In the guard we do shipboard landings, but we aren't trying to say we are experts at it. Each pilot does fire bucket training twice a year every year (probably way more than HSC guys train to deploy ordnance) yet we don't consider ourselves fire fighters. HSC can do these missions, but shouldn't be considered the best choice if assets with more experience are available.
Sometimes HS/HC/HSL/HSM are the only assets available. As an HSL guy on a CCDG staff I found myself flying an HH-60H and an SH-60F overland supporting an invasion. The Army was still unpacking their helos. I get it. That sort of thing can and does happen, but I wouldn't pretend to say that I or anyone else in that HS squadron were air assault or CSAR assets.
That's funny because I seem to remember CHSCWP's stack of HAZREPs and mishaps for hitting shit in the zone being significantly thicker than CHSMWP's. And we were flying day/night CAL/LZ all the time. That's not my anecdote, that was the HSC wing safety O's, first hand.
I'll straight throat punch any HT IP (I was one) who tells their studs that one community produces better sticks than the other. Different missions, different skill sets, but that's sales pitch is plain stupid. Hopefully I'm just misinterpreting your point, please correct me if I am.
We get in trouble when the Navy decides a community should be pretty okay at everything instead of excellent at core missions. HSC, sure, but HSM isn't immune, either. Why the hell do I need to think about carrying eight hellfire and rocket pods when I should be the best sensor platform over water, providing picture to feed command and control decisions to the bosses? Sure, putting some rounds on that FIAC would be an absolute blast, but if you can't build the commander a good, actionable picture of those things bearing down on him/her so informed decisions can be made, it's over before it starts. It's not a sexy mission, but it's absolutely vital for the boss. So is combat logistics. Let's all take a big dose of expectations management.
For those that don't understand the disillusionment of HSC JO's, imagine your employer training you in accounting and the intricacies of tax law. You're tested on it. You spend long nights at work studying and undergoing the standard harassment package from the accounting instructors, only to find out that your actual job is making widgets. And senior leadership at the company laughs at your for all those years you spent learning accounting.
That's a little bit like what HSC felt like for me. Overall I had a good time, but the frustrations with the community are legitimate.
That's a little bit like what HSC felt like for me. Overall I had a good time, but the frustrations with the community are legitimate.
Ok, lets just start with stupid. Stupid is having an underslung sensor. Why is that stupid do you ask? Because the clearance is fine if you're landing on a level LZ. Which is fine, unless you're landing, you know, on land. Which is not always level. So, just go from there and walk back from the fact that MANY landings within NATOPS limits means you will cause a class A and you understand.
People will say, well, we don't do that?!? Well, that's because your'e worried about smacking the shit out of a FLIR ball. Please, tell me. How often do you hit the ground at NATOPS limits . . you don't and when you come to within even half of that you're probably uncomfortable.
People will say, well, we don't do that?!? Well, that's because your'e worried about smacking the shit out of a FLIR ball. Please, tell me. How often do you hit the ground at NATOPS limits . . you don't and when you come to within even half of that you're probably uncomfortable.
- Calm down bro. I've never said HSC guys are better sticks to students. I've never heard an HSC instructor during my tour make that claim in front of students either.
- However, when HSM guys do tell the SNAs they spend a lot more time overwater operating RADAR and other sensors, operating top of the line gucci equipment the Navy cares about and the HSC guys nod their heads, I think more students these days are into that than as little as 7 years ago when I was in flight school. Like I said, even the HSC Commodores are telling them that 7th and 6th fleets will be their futures and they aren't dumb - they know subs are there - the HSM Commodores tell them so!
- I wouldn't be surprised that HSC's binder of HAZREPs is thicker. C'mon, you know there's no comparison about how much overland vs overwater training the two communities do. I think on all my time on the west coast overland ranges, I saw a single pair of HSM guys. In Fallon, they aren't doing TERF routes or brownout landings, and definitely aren't doing them at night. Granted, my info is from the 2013-2016 time frame but I'd bet it's still the same. I remember my roommate (an HSM cat 1) was stoked to do the mountain flying card I told him all about and how much fun I had. He came back so pissed as his FRS instructor told him "nah bro, we don't really do that, the winds are too dangerous in the mountains and I'm unfamiliar with how to really do it safely, so we are just going overwater and practice the maneuvers at altitude so you can see how the helicopter reacts." He came back like a sad puppy who had been kicked that day.
Isn’t -85 transitioning to Sierras? Also, the TF’s 60M and 47G have underslung sensors. I can’t say I ever was concerned about it at home and on deployment. Brownouts in Kuwait are gnarly, and honestly the FLIR was the least of my worries.
Hope retirement is treating you well KD. And Grenade, enjoy the friendly skies of VR, brother.
Jerry Hendrix notwithstanding...
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So far as I am aware, it was not by choice. In that, they are bringing, or trying to, weapons systems that make sense with them. They are not trying to bring new stupid shit that does make sense. I'll be blunt, the 20mm or whatever is slung on the side of a sierra, has no business being slung on the side of the sierra.
If you weren't concerned with the FLIR, then work on your profile. You know 100/50 80/40 . . . and so on. If you weren't concerned about the FLIR, then others were. Also, look at the DA birds for the TF, I could be wrong, but I don't think the straight insertion guys have the underslung FLIR. DAPS, not the same. Also, the DAPS guys aren't worried about an LZ.
The following is a drunk post. Some details may or may not be correct.
So far as I am aware, it was not by choice. In that, they are bringing, or trying to, weapons systems that make sense with them. They are not trying to bring new stupid shit that does make sense. I'll be blunt, the 20mm or whatever is slung on the side of a sierra, has no business being slung on the side of the sierra.
If you weren't concerned with the FLIR, then work on your profile. You know 100/50 80/40 . . . and so on. If you weren't concerned about the FLIR, then others were. Also, look at the DA birds for the TF, I could be wrong, but I don't think the straight insertion guys have the underslung FLIR. DAPS, not the same. Also, the DAPS guys aren't worried about an LZ.
Can’t say I’m surprised it was more or less forced on you. We can talk for days about the inadequecies of the avionics for the mission. Hopefully the operator gets the final voice/vote, but I won’t be shocked when they don’t. Would be nice if the Navy finds the money for the -17 mounts.
Me saying I wasn’t concerned was me meaning that I was far more focused on a safe landing. As my buddy from first batt says, “there’s nothing tactical about balling up the landing.” My profile is solid, with several hundred landings in the dirt. And the lift Mikes use underslung sensors. As does the 47G. I would enjoy having their brownout sensor technologies however. Rockwell Collins makes incredible glass cockpits.
It's all good, that wasn't directed at you personally, like I said if I was misinterpreting let me know. Back when HSM was fairly new, HSC had the upper hand in recruiting, so there was a time when you would hear stuff like that. Like my HM instructor threatening to carry my house away if I didn't sign up for 53's...
I certainly don't disagree that HSC does more overland training, but there was a real discussion facilitated by an HSC wing safety O and a group of HSM DH's asking for best practices. Some quick staff napkin math was showing that our in-zone mishap rate as a percentage was lower, and though we don't have an underslung FLIR or practice DV landings (at least not intentionally), we still have a radome, datalink, and to an extent, ESM antennas to contend with in an environment that our T/M/S was not specifically designed for. Granted, busting a FLIR ball and poking a hole in some fiberglass aren't the same, but the point of the discussion was risk management. We over-ORM our CAL/LZ training because we have to, it's not our bread and butter. I think this particular safety-O was fighting to move that process a bit in our direction because the HSC CDRE was getting fed up. But that's my view through a drinking straw. As you can see, as an HSM guy, I'm more concerned with our community running with every good idea fairy and losing focus on what we should be good at. Why? Because it's happening, IMHO.
Does no one else see the hypocrisy here?
I randomly stumbled across this chart and found it interesting too:
I wonder if VAQ spends their OPTAR in an appropriate manner.
