Putting military creases in utilities is stupid, but I have actually seen some assholes put creases in coveralls. Mostly it has been supply guys with access to that big press on the ship.
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SECNAV Criticizes 'Blueberries'
- Thread starter Flash
- Start date
I've seen it....AF guy. SMH...
jcj
Registered User
I know Marines used camouflage uniforms in theater in the Pacific and WW2, and lots of special units used camouflage uniforms of various types in Vietnam. But with regard to the standard everyday wear USMC utility uniform, I received my first USMC uniform issue in 1978 as a corpsman. It was half the OG-107 solid green utilities, and half the first generation "cammies" (pretty much identical to the later issue BDU uniform except it had slanted chest pockets on the blouse rather than straight) - because they were in transition from OG-107 to cammies. I think the Army changed over about 1981 or so. The camo helmet cover has been a USMC fixture for a really long time - later the Army adopted it too.
But seriously... 238 years of pretty solid heritage, tradition and pride, and in less than 10 years we put junior enlisted Sailors in khakis and made the rest look like extras from Starship Troopers. The ONLY actual uniform IMPROVEMENT I've seen during this same period of time are the new flight deck jerseys.
cricechex
Active Member
There are a lot of interesting points about the NWU's on this thread. It seems that most of you are in favor of the old uniform/s. What uniform did it replace for the officers?
Many of the issues with the utilities have already been brought up and argued for or against. I happen to agree with the issues Spekkio mentioned. I did not like the wear restrictions and did not like the similarity of prison garb; furthermore, whether you agree with it or not, the expectation around the Navy was that the utilities be worn more like a service uniform freshly ironed with creases else you looked like and were treated like a dirt bag. I thin the NWU's addressed all of these issues. Most notable, dirt bags have harder time looking like such in the NWU because it doesn't need to be pressed. Issues with the NWU's abound as well, however. The colors fade quickly, it is too hot in the summer, and not every pair of pants is made by the same distributor causing some to fit better than others. The bottom line is that there is no "perfect" uniform.
While I am a firm believer in preserving military traditions and resisting the ongoing shift towards a military ran like a corporation, I think the military tries to hold on to "that's the way we've always done it" too often. Case in point: on P-3's, our flight engineer NATOPS program managers insist that we continue to run every performance chart, fuel planning chart, weight and balance form, etc, by hand instead of utilizing technology (computers) which would eliminate human error, ie interpolation. Furthermore, the community continues to spend millions of dollars replacing navaid charts every year when the same information can be updated on iPads at a fraction of the cost. My point is that change is never easy but "failing forward" is better than no change at all.
V/R
Many of the issues with the utilities have already been brought up and argued for or against. I happen to agree with the issues Spekkio mentioned. I did not like the wear restrictions and did not like the similarity of prison garb; furthermore, whether you agree with it or not, the expectation around the Navy was that the utilities be worn more like a service uniform freshly ironed with creases else you looked like and were treated like a dirt bag. I thin the NWU's addressed all of these issues. Most notable, dirt bags have harder time looking like such in the NWU because it doesn't need to be pressed. Issues with the NWU's abound as well, however. The colors fade quickly, it is too hot in the summer, and not every pair of pants is made by the same distributor causing some to fit better than others. The bottom line is that there is no "perfect" uniform.
While I am a firm believer in preserving military traditions and resisting the ongoing shift towards a military ran like a corporation, I think the military tries to hold on to "that's the way we've always done it" too often. Case in point: on P-3's, our flight engineer NATOPS program managers insist that we continue to run every performance chart, fuel planning chart, weight and balance form, etc, by hand instead of utilizing technology (computers) which would eliminate human error, ie interpolation. Furthermore, the community continues to spend millions of dollars replacing navaid charts every year when the same information can be updated on iPads at a fraction of the cost. My point is that change is never easy but "failing forward" is better than no change at all.
V/R
From the old school, they've replaced Officers working:
1. Wash khakis
2. Aviation Winter Greens (AWG)
3. Tropical khakis
True in some cases, but too often, they are too motivated to "fix things that ain't broke"; which often turns out much worse than the status quo (UNIFORMs?)!
OBTW, the prisoner look-alike Enlisted dungaree/chambray working uniforms were worn by our Sailors many decades before civil prisoners shed the traditional black/white horizontal striped 'Zebra' garb. Therefore; Sailors in dungarees never looked like prisoners... Prisoners in dungarees looked more like Sailors!
In addition, In all my 22 years as an E & O, I've never felt, heard, or heard of any Sailor complain thht dungarees had a "convict" connotation (until I saw that comparison in this thread)!
BzB
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
But the utility uniform WAS broke. It's easy to look back on the 'good ol'e days' or act like a tough guy and say feelings don't matter when you don't have to wear them. It's easy to say "it doesn't matter, it's not written anywhere to put creases in utilities" when you don't have to obey the authority of CPOs. But if you were XO, would you tell your CMC to stop having the goat locker make their Sailors crease their utilities? Or would you be right there with him saying your crew is going to look sharp for the ADM visit? More likely, my guess is you'd be focused on more important things than something as mundane as E-6 and below creasing utilities...after all, the Chiefs are supposed to handle that. It doesn't matter if the Sailor dungarees came before The Shawshank Redemption was made, what matters is many Sailors in the 21st century identified the uniform with prison wear and that all the issues with utilities combined had an adverse effect on morale and retention.
So the CNO listened and created a uniform that fixed the complaints. Could it have been done a lot better? Absolutely. But to say that the old enlisted utilities weren't broken is ignoring or forgetting a wide range of issues that Sailors had with the uniform.
EDIT: I knew when I wrote the 'nam statement, someone was likely to show me up with a case where servicemembers wore camo. So thanks for the education...definitely not how WWII Marines are portrayed and I'm obviously dinq on my military history. However, the fact does remain that many real warfighters fought and died for our country in solid-colored uniforms without spending so much effort looking the part.
So the CNO listened and created a uniform that fixed the complaints. Could it have been done a lot better? Absolutely. But to say that the old enlisted utilities weren't broken is ignoring or forgetting a wide range of issues that Sailors had with the uniform.
EDIT: I knew when I wrote the 'nam statement, someone was likely to show me up with a case where servicemembers wore camo. So thanks for the education...definitely not how WWII Marines are portrayed and I'm obviously dinq on my military history. However, the fact does remain that many real warfighters fought and died for our country in solid-colored uniforms without spending so much effort looking the part.
...but what does a uniform have to do with community specific procedures WRT aircraft operation.
Compare uniform policies then to uniform polices now and you are on your way to convincing me.
commons sense has nothing to do with your "tough guy" accusation.
Yes.
Some might argue that the day to day welfare of your Sailors IS the XO's job?
This is a problem for you as a leader (with your Chiefs) to address. Something about Navy Pride and Professionalism... I think instilling a sense of heritage and organizational pride is a part of that.
Or.... He capitulated to a uniform board comprised of retired members of the Chief's mess. And don't forget the importance of making Sailors look more like members of our more "engaged" services early on during the "war on terror" (aka: war for funding).
jcj
Registered User
In addition, In all my 22 years as an E & O, I've never felt, heard, or heard of any Sailor complain thht dungarees had a "convict" connotation (until I saw that comparison in this thread)!
Early in boot camp, they did tell us that if anyone felt like jumping the fence, they needed to understand that the Orlando jail uniform was the same as ours.
Seriously, being unable to inspire pride and professionalism in a uniform with roots in the Navy's greatest hour in history and an inability to work with/rein in (depending on your "style") the Goat Locker has to be the stupidest fucking reasons possible to design a new uniform.
And I'd call that treating symptoms and not the problem.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
Yes. But then you proved my point with this:
Which is the attitude I would expect from the Front Office regarding the issue, which still leaves the E-6 and below right where they started, and possibly chewed out for going around the CoC.
Yea, it's totally a division level leadership issue and has NOTHING to do with the observable similarities between utilities and prison uniforms and restrictive wear regulations that were dictated from the CNO. You might be able to feed the kool aid to a bunch of career Sailors/Officers, but PO3 Jones who is doing a tour and out isn't gonna buy it. He just wants to wear a pair of pants that fit and a uniform he won't have to look over his shoulder while wearing should he have to change a flat tire. No matter how much pride you want to preach and how much you want to toot the WWII horn, the simple fact that they are not allowed by instruction to wear the uniform in public and that it bears a striking resemblance to prison uniforms is going to send a message that Sailors can't be proud of their uniforms. BTW, Sailors didn't wear utilities in the Navy's greates hour.
So a LTJG going around your ship telling every Chief to stop being retarded about utility creases would have success in the matter? Really? Because we already demonstrated with RLSO's post the attitude he'd get if he asked the XO to add some bite to the bark. And LTJG Smith isn't going to be there to protect PO3 Jones when a CPO from another command chews him out at the gas station for not having creases... and then calls his CMC.
I agree that wear restrictions could have been lifted without a new uniform, but the prison stigma, poor fit, and high maintenance issues would remain.
I agree in general with this EDIT: Our CVW-14 flew daily into No. Vietnam during the hairy early years of ROLLING THUNDER 1965-'67. Pre-deployment, when given the choice, we unanimously opted for 2-pc. Marine fatigues over cammy flight suits. There was no need to "look like a warrior", our concern was what we thought would increase chances for successful SAR recoveries. We could have sported bras & pink panties... and everyone on that ship (or if unlucky.. our captors), would still have known we were warriors.
BzB
Disclaimer: I consider NWUs a vast improvement over working khakis. I LOVE cargo pockets for real work. Plenty of shit they screwed up, but they at least got that right. With that out of the way:
During both my sea tours, any Chief with nothing better to do than to jump sailors that don't work for them for stupid shit would have been dealt with by the other Chiefs in the Mess. I never had to deal with this kind of absurdity. But I also felt like I had a real squared away Chief's Mess at both commands. So maybe if the behavior you cite really was a rampant problem service wide, the problem is a Chief's Mess with fucked up priorities, selection, and training.
So, back to what I said about treating symptoms, not the problem...
I am sure that mentality will work out well for us in more important shit like operating/maintaining equipment as well. Come to think of it, I'd say I see interesting parallels to programs that don't quite work right in the Fleet to the TFU debacle.