I don't know if any of the other mids here have spent any time around an area where it is a primarily training command, but those places they salute you all the time. It is sort of awkward. I was in Pensacola for a week doing pre-aviation cruise stuff, and the enlisted aircrewman students there were eager to salute anything that had any semblance of an officer. We were in flight suits with no insignia, and there would be Marines saluting us from what literally seemed like 100 yards away. I never got so many confused faces when they walked past and got a look at the insignia on our cover.
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Saluting Mids
- Thread starter Gatordev
- Start date
DocT said:
Like Brett said, it's pretty standard. I remember being on a frigate as a Mid and the E's would tell us to go to the head of the line. Personally, I didn't use it, even if I rated it, because the guys had A LOT less time to eat and relax than we did as mids.
As an aviator on a small boy, it didn't come into play much. Usually we were camped out at the wardroom table before the meal anyway (we're aviators, it's what we do). Plus, it's just such a pain in the ass to go down to the crew's mess because there's already way too many people w/ out enough seats as it was. The ship's officers would eat down there to sample the mess after watch, so they'd get sent to the head of the line.
As for being saluted as a mid...if I was a mid again, I'd do what most of you are saying. Return the salute but explain it wasn't necessary. This is the same technique I tried w/ 1stLTs in the fleet, but after a while, I gave up. Marines like to salute everything, so it was a lost cause.
Thisguy
Pain-in-the-dick
gatordev said:
When I was at CECOS, an ENS LDO (who was an instructor) saluted me on the first day (I was rockin' the JG bars). I saluted back, then shook his hand and introduced myself. I was started to explain that it really wasn't necessary for an O-1 to salute an O-2, his reply was "We recognize rank on this base." After a response like that, I figured, different strokes for different folks. I guess I was a little surprised, especially since aviation LDO/CWO types would laugh at the concept of saluting JOs.
So there are chiefs going around saluting midshipmen just to put them in their place if they bite...hell, that's professionalism right there. Let's just start an "all future officers are incompetent retards unless they made E-5 or above" thread, why not?
I don't get what all the fuss over saluting is --- you know; the fuss that pops up on Air Warriors periodically. About "saluting" and "why I don't have to .... "
SALUTE, for God's sake, if the person "rates" it. If in doubt ... SALUTE!! Some of you guys, past & present, have a real attitude problem in that you are more concerned about when you "don't have to" salute then you are with the possibility of rendering a sign of respect (a salute, or a "sir") when it "might" not be rated.
If you are a Midshipman in your first two years --- you don't "rate" a salute from enlisted --- you even wear "enlisted" uniforms of a sort when working on cruise. But you should accept and return said salutes with the same respect in which they are theoretically offered --- in any case.
If you are a Midshipman in your second two years, i.e., a 2/C or 1/C Middie --- you DO rate a salute and the privilieges and responsibilities of a junior JO. Make that ... really junior. You stand JOOD and other watches underway. "Salute"? "Sir"? What do you think ....
There are historical examples --- in the American Navy and military --- wherein a MIDSHIPMAN or CADET was the last surviving "officer" and the command devolved down to him. Or I suppose you could say "her" these days ... ... rate a "salute"? What say you .... ???
My 1/C cruise --- I was the "senior" boat officer on a 12-15 boat (can't remember) landing wave assaulting the beach in Kavalla, Greece. The position had been specifically assigned to me by the CO/XO of the LSD I was embarked on .... do you suppose I "rated" a salute in that situation?? Do you suppose the sailors and Marines called me .. "Sir"??? You bet your sweet ass ....
Oh, yeah --- the Chief assigned as my "bodyguard" never got more than 2-3 feet from my side. Yessir .... :icon_rast
SALUTE, for God's sake, if the person "rates" it. If in doubt ... SALUTE!! Some of you guys, past & present, have a real attitude problem in that you are more concerned about when you "don't have to" salute then you are with the possibility of rendering a sign of respect (a salute, or a "sir") when it "might" not be rated.
If you are a Midshipman in your first two years --- you don't "rate" a salute from enlisted --- you even wear "enlisted" uniforms of a sort when working on cruise. But you should accept and return said salutes with the same respect in which they are theoretically offered --- in any case.
If you are a Midshipman in your second two years, i.e., a 2/C or 1/C Middie --- you DO rate a salute and the privilieges and responsibilities of a junior JO. Make that ... really junior. You stand JOOD and other watches underway. "Salute"? "Sir"? What do you think ....
There are historical examples --- in the American Navy and military --- wherein a MIDSHIPMAN or CADET was the last surviving "officer" and the command devolved down to him. Or I suppose you could say "her" these days ...
... rate a "salute"? What say you .... ???My 1/C cruise --- I was the "senior" boat officer on a 12-15 boat (can't remember) landing wave assaulting the beach in Kavalla, Greece. The position had been specifically assigned to me by the CO/XO of the LSD I was embarked on .... do you suppose I "rated" a salute in that situation?? Do you suppose the sailors and Marines called me .. "Sir"??? You bet your sweet ass ....
Oh, yeah --- the Chief assigned as my "bodyguard"
never got more than 2-3 feet from my side. Yessir .... :icon_rast etnuclearsailor
STA 21 Nuclear OC
I'm wondering how this works for officer candidates. I'm enlisted (E-5), but I'm also in the NROTC just like a midshipman. I try not to let anyone get away with calling me "sir", but I also return any salutes rendered. How should I view this dual existence of mine?
It often surprises me how little many of the Midshipmen around me know about proper military customs. I spent a good 20 minutes explaining to some of the mids once how we (OC's/ MIDN) don't rate a salute.
I remember totally confusing the gate guard while I was TAD to NWS Charleston with my E-5 ID card while wearing khakis. I also wound up saluted many times while walking around on an Army fort.
It often surprises me how little many of the Midshipmen around me know about proper military customs. I spent a good 20 minutes explaining to some of the mids once how we (OC's/ MIDN) don't rate a salute.
I remember totally confusing the gate guard while I was TAD to NWS Charleston with my E-5 ID card while wearing khakis. I also wound up saluted many times while walking around on an Army fort.
Here is the point I have been trying to make. If you dont wear the "Officers' Cap Device" (compliments of IP568), you do not rate a salute, nor a sir. During the ceremony when you become an officer and you receive your first salute, its just that, your first official salute. As a mid you are considered to be in training. You haven't made it to the rank of O-1 yet, and there is no guarentee that you will either. As a mid you have no positional authority over anyone, other than maybe other mids. Anyone who extends the courtesy of an officer to a mid does so to be nice. Having said this, while I dont go around saluting mids, a hand shake or a verbal greeting, such as "good luck shipmate", is entirely appropriate. If anyone can show me differently, like a Navy Reg or such, I would appreciate that.
T
TXHusker05
Guest
Yes, you are in training... training to be a naval officer. Part of being a naval officer is the respect to be called sir. I am not saying mids are supposed to be high and mighty over the enlisted guys, because they aren't, but the 2/C and 1/C guys that are clearly on their way to becoming Naval officers should be respected as such. I doubt there is a reg on it, nor is it something any mid should expect, or any enlisted guy is obligated to do. Especially to the 1/C's on their last cruise, they are in effect a junior officer and assigned the duties as such (under the watchful eye of people who know what they are doing). They are just junior of the juniors.
Before I get into this, I just want to let is be known, kind of like a disclaimer or waiver, that I have no problem with mids, and in fact, I enjoy watching them progress in their careers, I am just playing devils advocate.
"Part of being a naval officer is the respect to be called sir."
-A mid is not a naval officer.
"the 2/C and 1/C guys that are clearly on their way to becoming Naval officers should be respected as such."
-A mid well on their way to becoming a naval officer does not make a mid a naval officer.
"Especially to the 1/C's on their last cruise, they are in effect a junior officer"
-Just because you have the duties of an officer doesn't mean that you are one. Plenty of chiefs are put into roles that give them the responsibility of an officer and they do not rank a salute nor a sir.
I'm just commenting for the sake of arguement. I was researching on google and I found sources both supporting and in opposition to my position. Hopefully someone has some diffinative answers?
"Part of being a naval officer is the respect to be called sir."
-A mid is not a naval officer.
"the 2/C and 1/C guys that are clearly on their way to becoming Naval officers should be respected as such."
-A mid well on their way to becoming a naval officer does not make a mid a naval officer.
"Especially to the 1/C's on their last cruise, they are in effect a junior officer"
-Just because you have the duties of an officer doesn't mean that you are one. Plenty of chiefs are put into roles that give them the responsibility of an officer and they do not rank a salute nor a sir.
I'm just commenting for the sake of arguement. I was researching on google and I found sources both supporting and in opposition to my position. Hopefully someone has some diffinative answers?
Thisguy
Pain-in-the-dick
TXHusker05 said:
I don't know how it is with other commands, but all the mids we got at my previous squadron didn't do jack. They were shown around, given a backseat hop, but other than that, they had zero responsibility. Ok, that's not entirely true, they had to muster for man overboard.
. Seriously though, what I meant was, usually when they first show up they dont have much of a clue about anything, but its cool to talk to them and kind of show them things and answer questions and its neat to watch them "get it".
And part of that is the lack of any real "curriculum," for lack of a better word, while at a beach cruise. I think most of the JOs who are in charge of Mids knew it wasn't a taxing evolution when they went through, so they carry on the tradition. Not saying that's right or wrong. On ships (underway, based on what I've experienced/seen), there seems to be more inclusion of Mids, probably because there's nothing better to do.
CarbonFibre said:
Show me a Navy reg that says there should be a change of command ceremony. You can't. It's another one of those traditions. I think we're all in agreement that the discussion/debate is mostly academic, as no one is advocating a Mid being a douchnozle and throwing their perceived weight around.
As ETnucsailor is saying, it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. For example, an OC wears khaki. Should a chief be berating the OC? Nope, that's the OC's uniform, even though his rank is E-x and still takes rating exams. OCs also get blue stickers (as do Mids). So should they not be saluted at the gate? Well, we salute the sticker/rank, not the person. Obviously these are just anecdotal evidence, but you get the idea. I've seen pay charts where they show E-1 thru E-9, then MIDN 4-1/c, then WO, then O-1 thru O-10. They do, technically, fall above enlisted (not the best way to put that, but you know what I mean).