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Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???

Flash said:
...words .... !
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Slash (sic) ... why do you ALWAYS think it's only about you ... ??? It's about you and @ 4-6 others, but why do you think that give you some kine' authorship?? I realize you're insecure ... but com'on, man ...

ACTUALLY ... you don't 'bother me' anymore -- you use to in varying degrees, but now when I see your screed, I just laugh. Seriously ... I find you amusing in a clueless-kid-down-the-street-kine'-way ... the one that never gets called to play baseball and is still tryin' to figure out how to sit up on a bike ... no harm, no foul ... I realize you're completely harmless.

I just wish you worked in the private sector vice govt. so you might be exposed to at least half a clue once in a while. Oh, that's right ... you already tried to ...

I hope you get better someday -- but I'm not holding my breath. :)
 
If it means another business owner isn't exploiting illegal labor to pad his profit margin, I'm pretty sure I'd be all about it.
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Actually, I doubt it'll have any effect on people who are intent on using illegal immigrants as a source of cheap labor. After these illegal immigrants are deported, they'll just try to come back again. Additionally, more successfully cross the border everyday. There is enough of a supply that the business owner can just pick up a new guy the next day.
 
Unless you have a problem with potential enforcement abuse, ie racial profiling, your criticism of the new AZ law must mean you are for open borders.

If you have a problem with potential enforcement abuse, Hacker, Flash, spekio, etc, how the hell do you live with the awesome power of deadly force and arrest police already have? If you feel this law is more prone to abuse, then how can you possible support any immigration law? Are the Border Patrol less likely to racially profile in there enforcement of the federal law, almost verbatim the AZ law, then a Phoenix or Tucson police officer? Do you really believe that it is safe to trust the judgment of cops when deciding whether it is legal to enter a private house w/o a warrant due to exigent circumstances, but not trust their judgment when enforcing this law? Mistakes are made by the police all the time. Sometimes, very rarely, they even knowingly disregard policy and even more rare break the law. But when a cop uses bad judgment in a shooting, we don't take their guns away or change the law to require they be shot at before shooting back, thereby clearly establishing deadly intent and removing judgment from the officer. So why the hell are we so concerned about a POTENTIAL abuse in such a relative way? This potential abuse would result in someone being questioned for mere minutes and sent on their way. Face it, the down side is minimal. If abuse is on purpose and based SOLELY on race, then it is a constitutional abuse, I will give you that. But getting shot by the police for the wrong reasons is a fourth amendment abuse of the highest order, and we trust out police with the continued option to enforce the law and protect the public with guns.

The AZ law specifically prohibits racial profiling and the governor ordered new training specific to enforcement of this law. We trust cops with far more power then require to enforce this law, and no complains about that. I see no reason we can not go forward and simply watch for abuse just as we do in every arrest and public contact made by police. The courts will deal with the very rare abuses just as they do now. I personally believe that most people screaming about the fear of profiling are simply open border people, or at the least, very sympathetic to illegal immigrants and can't bear to enforce our laws again them.
 
Spekkio said:
There is enough of a supply that the business owner can just pick up a new guy the next day.
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Not in AZ. Not if he wants to keep his business. Did you read the law!!!! In AZ second offense caught with an illegal alien on your pay role and you lose you business license! Out of business, gone, livelihood down the tubes.
 
Wink, you're talking apples and oranges.

Yes, we do give police trust with deadly weapons, and yes, they train extensively on when they can and can't use that weapon. Sometimes incidents happen, and that is a price of doing business. However, police are still people, and getting away with pulling someone over solely because they are Latino is a lot different than getting away with clandestinely discharging your firearm.

I know quite a few cops, they're all good guys, but not one of them thinks that the 4th amendment is anything more than a way for criminals to go home on loopholes and an obstruction to their job.

Not in AZ. Not if he wants to keep his business. Did you read the law!!!! In AZ second offense caught with an illegal alien on your parole and you lose you business license! Out of business, gone, livelihood down the tubes.
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As I stated before, this is already illegal and people still do it anyway... much like it's illegal for people to carry concealed weapons in NY, but they do that anyway, too. Making it illegal again isn't going to change anything.
 
Treetop Flyer said:
Crying racism is all too often the last recourse of someone incapable of making a rational argument.
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There's an old saying in the legal world: "If you can't argue the law, argue the facts; if you can't argue the facts, argue the law; and if you can't do either, attack your opponent personally." You get to see the trifecta (in spades) on this issue...
 
A4sForever said:
......now when I see your screed, I just laugh. Seriously ... I find you amusing in a clueless-kid-down-the-street-kine'-way ... the one that never gets called to play baseball and is still tryin' to figure out how to sit up on a bike ... no harm, no foul ... I realize you're completely harmless.
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Took the words right out of my mouth.

A4sForever said:
I just wish you worked in the private sector vice govt. so you might be exposed to at least half a clue once in a while. Oh, that's right ... you already tried to ...
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Eh? Know something I don't about my employment history?

wink said:
Unless you have a problem with potential enforcement abuse, ie racial profiling, your criticism of the new AZ law must mean you are for open borders.
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That is an oversimplification. I am not for open borders and my issues with the law are more practical than political.

wink said:
If you feel this law is more prone to abuse, then how can you possible support any immigration law? Are the Border Patrol less likely to racially profile in there enforcement of the federal law, almost verbatim the AZ law, then a Phoenix or Tucson police officer?
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From what I have seen the Border Patrol are confined to a more limited geographic area and are almost exclusively concerned with border security, including illegal immigration. The regular police are more generalists and might not have the same expertise as the Border Patrol and correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe the Border Patrol regularly cruises Phoenix or Tucson looking for illegals. The 'reasonable suspicion' thing just makes me cringe a little bit, too broad in it's possible interpretation.

wink said:
So why the hell are we so concerned about a POTENTIAL abuse in such a relative way? This potential abuse would result in someone being questioned for mere minutes and sent on their way. Face it, the down side is minimal. If abuse is on purpose and based SOLELY on race, then it is a constitutional abuse, I will give you that.
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I think part of the sensitivity is the poor history that many police departments have in this country of racial profiling, something that is very recent history and some argue still happens.

wink said:
The AZ law specifically prohibits racial profiling and the governor ordered new training specific to enforcement of this law.
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Will it be a 216 slide PowerPoint presentation? ;)
 
Spekkio said:
Wink, you're talking apples and oranges.

Yes, we do give police trust with deadly weapons, and yes, they train extensively on when they can and can't use that weapon. Sometimes incidents happen, and that is a price of doing business. However, police are still people, and getting away with pulling someone over solely because they are Latino is a lot different than getting away with clandestinely discharging your firearm.

I know quite a few cops, they're all good guys, but not one of them thinks that the 4th amendment is anything more than a way for criminals to go home on loopholes and an obstruction to their job.

As I stated before, this is already illegal and people still do it anyway... much like it's illegal for people to carry concealed weapons in NY, but they do that anyway, too. Making it illegal again isn't going to change anything.
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You are a fool.

Flash said:
That is an oversimplification. I am not for open borders and my issues with the law are more practical than political.
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OK, I'll bite. What practical issues bother you?


Flash said:
The 'reasonable suspicion' thing just makes me cringe a little bit, too broad in it's possible interpretation.
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Then just how do you mange to function in this country of laws? Reasonable suspicion is the standard used by law enforcement to do the vast majority of their job. Please feel free to recommend another standard that is workable in this context. I am guessing you would not suggest "absolute certainty". Basicly, your concern over the standard used is simply curable if we are to have effective law enforcement.

Flash said:
I think part of the sensitivity is the poor history that many police departments have in this country of racial profiling, something that is very recent history and some argue still happens.
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Sure, but very over blown. I always have to wonder how it is a cop can tell that a driver is black when it is night and he is behind the vehicle. Hell, try it yourself in the day time. Moreover, people don't have the slightest clue when it is legal to take race into account in law enforcement. In any case, I don't think it is good policy to let anecdotal stories and loud protesters screaming about racial profiling guide legislation. You give me the factual history of racial profiling abuse and I will give you a governors order that she will not permit it and training to give the cops better tools so as to avoid it even coincidentally.


Flash said:
Will it be a 216 slide PowerPoint presentation? ;)
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Ugh! It is the police, not the military. :icon_wink
 
His argument that this would "force us to become immigration officers" is a crock of shit. You are charged with the responsibility to protect and serve the citizens by cracking down on all, ALL illegal activity, and as was already pointed out, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. That would be like one of you guys saying "fighting on the ground would force me to become an infantry Officer...that's just not my style."
 
jt71582 said:
His argument that this would "force us to become immigration officers" is a crock of shit. You are charged with the responsibility to protect and serve the citizens by cracking down on all, ALL illegal activity, and as was already pointed out, illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. That would be like one of you guys saying "fighting on the ground would force me to become an infantry Officer...that's just not my style."
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Actually he is charged with enforcing the laws of Arizona and his locality, illegal immigration is a federal crime.
 
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