Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???

[Flash]

I don't see what people can possibly complain about. The Border Patrol already runs checkpoints that stop everyone. Go to virtually any other country in the world without a passport or a visa and see what happens. You will get asked to provide proof that you are there legally and when you can't you get sent packing. It's very simple.

Some are concerned, I think with some validity, that it may be too broad a brush.

 

[wink]

Some are concerned, I think with some validity, that it may be too broad a brush.

The thing is, the brush is just as wide as the federal one, not more broad or less broad. All those guys mentioned in the linked article are taking very precise political positions. Just look at who they are, the races/states or districts they are in, or their previous positions on immigration reform.

Good call on the constitutional musings above. Actually it looks like one of the major challenges will be Article VI, The Supremacy Clause. But I don't think that is too big a deal. First the liberal 9th circuit upheld Arizona's stiff employer sanctions law that applies severe penalties for hiring an illegal alien. There are federal laws concerning the hiring of illegal aliens, yet the 9th circus was not swayed. Also, the law in question does not countermand any federal law. Az will not have customs or border patrol agents or border check points. It will not require permission of the state to cross the border into AZ. AZ will not set immigration quotas, grant visas or issue passports. All that is properly left to the feds. AZ is simply giving law enforcement the tools to help enforce federal laws. That is done all the time, if even informally. Local cops help make federal cases all the time. When a local investigation runs into federal criminal issues, the locals simply call the feds and share their investigative work. That is pretty much what is going to happen here.

 

[scoolbubba]

Some are concerned, I think with some validity, that it may be too broad a brush.

I have to applaud the people of Arizona for, at the very least, firing a shot across the bow of the Federal government. If this succeeds as a wake up call to enforce immigration law, and secure our nation's borders, then the law is worth the trouble. It's funny how in the age of expanding federal powers, Congress isn't foaming at the mouth to use one clearly delineated to it in section 8 of the Constitution.

I don't have a problem with police officers asking to see documentation. On the very few encounters I've had with a police officer (and I'll grudgingly admit they've always had probable cause to talk to me), one of the first things they've asked for is a piece of identification. It's not beyond the scope of reasonable suspicion to think someone in a border area, who can't produce state or federal ID, is there illegally. We're talking about a license, state ID card, or social security card... ve are not ze germans asking to see your "papers." People here legally have nothing to fear: show the police officer your ID card, and they'll continue to do the same thing they've always done with it: call it in, check for warrants, and come back with it to deal with the matter at hand if nothing else pops up in your background. You don't have an ID card, or yours doesn't check out? Well...now you're in trouble....just like you would have been before this law was signed, only now the police are REQUIRED to contact the federal authorities to deal with an illegal immigrant. Requiring the federal government to do its job...accountability...amazing concepts.

As much as CNN would hate to admit it after seeing the heart breaking stories on their front page the past two days, this seems to actually be working. The Mexican President advised his citizen's to be careful travelling in AZ, as they could be "harassed and questioned without further cause at any time." Hmm...if only we could get the "tourists" from Calderon's country to go home after their "vacation" is over, this wouldn't be an issue. But it's not in his interest to stop his citizens, after all, his citizen's living up north are no longer a drain on his nation's resources, and they pump valuable greenbacks into the economy.

Another story details how a Taqueria is losing business, with no examination of said business's customer base. Whether the people who are avoiding the place are illegal immigrants or not doesn't really matter...why let facts get in the way of a good story?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/28/arizona.immigration/index.html?hpt=C2

 

[Recovering LSO]

Illegal is not a race.

 

[SkywardET]

Illegal is not a race.

Neither is Hispanic, officially.

I don't think anyone's referring to an "illegal race," so much as referring to their immigration status as being illegal which has been short-handed into referring to them simply as "illegal." There's no "douche" race either, but people referring to douches generally refer to that person's behavior and generally not their race, legal status, or etc. No "homosexual" race either, but when you hear someone refer to a "homosexual," well, you get the point.

 

[Recovering LSO]

^ not sure exactly what you're saying here. Last night I punished myself and listened to an interview with several political pundits who kept calling this a "racist law". Illegal is not a race - its a violation of existing law.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Crying racism is all too often the last recourse of someone incapable of making a rational argument.

 

[wink]

I couldn't find any explanation of what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" in either of the links provided (I didn't read them in their entirety). I personally can't think of what it would be, except talking funny and being dark, and that's obviously a problem. Perhaps you have an example handy?

Reasonable suspicion is what the police use every day when making investigative stops, arresting people, pulling over a vehicle, entering a home, etc. We trust them, most of us, with deadly weapons and the legal authority to abridge our constitutional rights every day. We don't fear the police in this country like they do in some. That is because we have laws and courts that interpret whether reasonable suspicion was used in any given case. Someone is pulled over for speeding and the driver does not have a driver's license and is not in the state database of licensed drivers, does not have required insurance, none of his passengers has ID, none but the driver speak English and he poorly (not a crime of course but a fact allowed to be considered) the car is "borrowed", and that gives you reason to believe they may not be in the country legally, or up to no good. So you call ICE to check on their status. Hey, if the car is riding very low at the trunk and the driver has now changed his story about where he has been and where going, checking in the trunk for dope or people is a pretty good idea. All that is legal, based on reasonable suspicion. It is a judgment call. Trust them, put verify with the courts.

 

[Spekkio]

People here legally have nothing to fear: show the police officer your ID card, and they'll continue to do the same thing they've always done with it: call it in, check for warrants, and come back with it to deal with the matter at hand if nothing else pops up in your background. You don't have an ID card, or yours doesn't check out? Well...now you're in trouble....just like you would have been before this law was signed, only now the police are REQUIRED to contact the federal authorities to deal with an illegal immigrant. Requiring the federal government to do its job...accountability...amazing concepts.

And once the papers publish a few stories of brown skinned American citizens with Spanish accents getting "harassed" by police because they forgot their wallets at home, this easy solution will come to a grinding halt.

 

[VulcanRider]

Exactly. The media pumps this racist crap to everyone. It just so happens that we only have two neighboring countries. One of these is not like the others, and that one happens to have a high poverty level causing immigration problems for us. If the problem were reversed from Canada, what would people say, that the government is racist towards white people?

 

[A4sForever]

I REALLY get tired of the bullshit and rationalizations that some (most?) of you boys on the 'left' blow out your blow-holes on this website ... it doesn't matter what the issue is ... you can always be counted on to take a 'less than American' stance.

.... and what do I mean w/ that semi-inflammatory comment???

You guys who are 'against' what 70% of the people from AZ are trying to do (and soon to be 70% of Tejas voters with a new, soon to be copied from AZ Texas bill??) ... and you are only tryin' to convince yourselves for whatever-the-fuck-reasons your pathetic upbringing encumbered you with that the new AZ law is 'bad' ... or 'unconstitutional' ... or 'mean spirited' ... or whatever bogus reason you care to list ... AND you are either intellectually dishonest -- or you are dumber, and I mean really ..... really .... really ... really ... DUMBER -- than whale-shit on the bottom of the deep blue sea ... and that's pretty fucking dumb.

'Immigration reform'???

It's all about VOTES ... and/or 'future votes' ... POLITCAL VOTES ... POWER ... CONTROL ... and whether the politicians be Republican or Democrat (doesn't matter) ... let's say: ANY politician who is against a 'hard' enforcement solution to the southern border problem is just trolling for potential votes. What are the 'votes' that I'm talkin' about??? It's about how they translate into control ... control of US ... THE FUCKIN' LEGALS ... and it's tenure ... it's like the Democrats did (successfully) in the '30s with the various and sundry creation of a dependent class via the 'New Deal' programs of 70 years ago ... a political agenda that created an 'entitlement' dependent-class that is still with us today.

The ILLEGALS who would/could be given 'amnesty' in any 'immigration reform' (what's to 'reform' about being in this country ILLEGALLY??????) would come in on the bottom 50% of the socio-economic strata ... or didn't YOU know that ????

That's the part of the population that doesn't contribute to the system ... they just USE the 'system'.

It -- amnesty for ILLEGALS -- will be the death of the USA ...

The AZ law is good. At least it's a start to correcting a HUGE injustice. Just ask the people --the legal ones -- of AZ. :sleep_125

 

[VulcanRider]

^ Said it better than my potentially confusing post did since the quote didn't come out. Illegal = Illegal NOT entitlement.

 

[Recovering LSO]

well, for anyone else who supports the law, i suppose we're done posting, because it ain't gonna be any better stated than that!

 

[scoolbubba]

And once the papers publish a few stories of brown skinned American citizens with Spanish accents getting "harassed" by police because they forgot their wallets at home, this easy solution will come to a grinding halt.

Because clearly, no one could corroborate his or her immigration status through any other means, like maybe an address that matches up to the name they give, or a social security number, or hell, maybe he gets taken down to county and the great mystery of who the fuck is this guy, and where is he from gets solved there. SO FUCKING BE IT, because if he's here legally then he gets set free, and if he's not, then his ass gets mailed back wherever he came from, postage due.

The problem with this law, as everyone against it would have you believe, is that it requires common sense on the part of the people enforcing it. Since it's such a foreign entity to our elected representatives, they can't fathom how us lesser people could possibly possess it. You see, our law enforcement officers would have to be trusted to use a modicum of common sense and good judgment. However would all the police officers in these hispanic communities, who grew up in hispanic neighborhoods speaking spanish, ever communicate with someone who didn't have their identification on them?! Impossible to overcome, throw the baby out with the bathwater, and shame on us for thinking America was meant for Americans.

You know what Spekkio, you're right, we should probably just throw open the borders, rename ourselves the People's Republic of North Mexico and go with it. You've poked a hole in the entire premise that no one in all the collective wisdom of Arizona could have possibly foreseen. Thank goodness you were here, that immigration crisis thing could have gotten dicey!

 

[rare21]

As a quick reply:

I hear they want to pass this in Texas. My job is bogged down enough. I pull over a truck full of illegals (wet, mud caked, no IDs) and it takes Border Patrol who is stationed in the next city over an hour to get to my location while i'm babysitting 10 illegals (dont ask why). Just a hassle and I know most of us do not want to start arresting Mexicans due to citizenship when first off, its not our case, its not our problem (no crime committed it the city), and it uses up valuable resources. If I did this I would be up to my neck in paperwork that i'd never get a chance to take any calls. What is going to happen its this...the illegals in the city will no longer call the police due to fear of being arrested (this is already a norm to a point because most think that talking to a cop is a deportable offense). In one way thats good for me as far as calls and paperwork, but bad for the safety of the city. We have motels, bars and trailer parks that cater only to illegals. Its a way of life and as much as I want to slap someone and say "speak English!" I cannot. Either way the law goes I really do not care...its just more work for me. Pass it or dont pass it, I will still do my job, nothing is going to change.