Racism in the Military

[GroundPounder]

I'm not in a position to research it right now, but I would bet that the Army combat arms First Sergeant and Sergeant Major numbers are skewed to where minorities are represented at a greater percentage than the overall population. If, on the commissioned side of the house they are underrepresented, does the " institutional racism " only care about 1/2 of the leadership equation?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I would agree with @HAL Pilot regarding NYT

In any organization there is going to be a bad apple or two as any organization is a reflection of the population it draws from.

In all my time in the USN I can only think of 1 incident that was clear racism and that was by a MCPO at a recruiting command, he had a few drinks made a few comments about a certain race. It was reported by a few of his fellow CPO's and within a week he was removed from his position, given a letter of reprimand and forced to retire, given he had been a MCPO for a short time he ended up retiring as a SCPO.

In looking at retention especially on the enlisted side I know many minorities who were smart individuals and saw the opportunity to serve as a way to get money for college, get some training for a job outside of the military and travel, and yes I know that sounds like a recruiting pitch. These young men and women saw the military as a way to improve themselves, they did not intend to stay for a career even though some did, I however had more young men and women who were minorities that followed this plan than I did who were regular white guys.

I also know several officers who are minorities that are doing quite well, one should be CO of his own ship in the next year, another I lost track of but she is probably on the same track as she was a very sharp woman and one more off the top of my head is a good friend of mine that I hope stays in as she is a great person.

In the end I never cared what color the person was I was serving with, I just wanted to serve beside men and women I can trust who do their job and do it well.

 

[Charles Edward]

Who Army bases are named after is not really relevant to racism in the military in a practical sense - less so if you're interested in being a Naval Officer.

A better question is to understand the demographics in the Officer Corps to explain the demographics of those in "top jobs." Generally speaking, minorities of all kinds are overrepresented in the enlisted ranks, with respect to their numbers in the US population. In the officer ranks, minorities, and especially women, are underrepresented. Lots of factors the go into why that is, but we'll set those aside for now. With minorities being a very small subset of all officers - usually less than 10%, it's natural that there will be fewer eligible minority officers competing for those "top jobs." In many respects, it's just a numbers game. The same holds true for women, who are around 5-7% of the officer corps in the USN.

I would say that our promotions process for officers is at least as fair as anything in the civilian world. Some would argue that there are even mechanisms that look like affirmative action to give minority officers (and women) some advantages in reaching senior positions. That is debatable, but it's an idea that lingers.

So, my perspective (as a white male, granted) is that the military is, on balance, less concerned about someone's race than most large organizations in the corporate world. If you do good work, you will generally be rewarded. The Navy is working hard to change the demographics of the people it hires to more closely match the population at large - more women, more racial minorities, etc. That takes time.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Brett. I did in fact read once that the US military is one of the few organizations in the world where blacks routinely boss around whites (granted that it happens more often in the enlisted ranks), and that the US military has more black executives than any organization in corporate America.

 

[Spekkio]

Are there merits to these New York Times articles? Are blacks virtually shut out from the top jobs in the military?

Growing up, the NYT had a prestigious reputation among journalists and readers. Granted their main competition was the NY Post and Daily News, both papers that are borderline tabloids.

Once news went digital, the NYT refused to adapt at first. This resulted in tough times for them and they've gone down hill. They hide behind a paywall (which is easy enough to bypass for anyone who actually wants to), and the majority of their online content is bs clickbait written by disgruntled boomer aged journalists for the boomer aged liberals who remained loyal to them. From 2010-2018 (give or take a few years) they ran almost daily articles about how millenials are ruining [thing].

I can't speak to their print papers anymore, as I haven't read one since circa 2005.

 

[Jim123]

Growing up, the NYT had a prestigious reputation among journalists and readers... [but] the majority of their online content is bs clickbait

Their technical coverage of COVID has been quite good (and free!). That really contrasts to most of their other material, which always seems to have an angry political slant. I think the media has more than enough places where I can get my fill of angry politics so I don't see much point in paying for it from NYT. I might actually pay for dry, boring coverage of current events, but that style of coverage is just so rare.

I did in fact read once that the US military is one of the few organizations in the world where blacks routinely boss around whites...

"Boss around" is kind of a strange term for it. The best leaders don't have to say much or give very many orders- because their subordinates understand what needs to get done. Good and bad leaders and followers come in all colors. To outsiders, sometimes the military looks like a lot of yelling and bossing around. That's usually from fluff pieces on things like recruit training or overly dramatic stories that make for good TV and movies. Day to day life is usually pretty bland. It doesn't make for good TV.

 

[Spekkio]

I might actually pay for dry, boring coverage of current events, but that style of coverage is just so rare.

This is what I remember of the print NYT. Dry, gory details and a sprinkling of SAT words.

To outsiders, sometimes the military looks like a lot of yelling and bossing around. That's usually from fluff pieces on things like recruit training or overly dramatic stories that make for good TV and movies. Day to day life is usually pretty bland. It doesn't make for good TV.

On a good deployment, there's probably enough material to fill a single movie with a lot of time compression.

 

[Hair Warrior]

The U.S. Senate is named after the Senate of ancient Rome, a male-dominated society that conquered, enslaved, and subjugated people across what is modern day Europe, Asia, and Africa.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

"Boss around" is kind of a strange term for it. The best leaders don't have to say much or give very many orders- because their subordinates understand what needs to get done. Good and bad leaders and followers come in all colors. To outsiders, sometimes the military looks like a lot of yelling and bossing around. That's usually from fluff pieces on things like recruit training or overly dramatic stories that make for good TV and movies. Day to day life is usually pretty bland. It doesn't make for good TV.

Yeah outside of OCS, I've been privately dressed down once (no yelling involved) and it was deserved. I think at least one other time I deserved one (boneheaded mistake of.. taking the wrong aircraft... Not flying but was about to... and not as a student solo!) and didn't get it. So while on the enlisted side it probably happens a little bit more, good leadership doesn't involve "bossing around" your subordinates.

On the senior leadership being too white and racism being the reason why, keep in mind that the top GOFOs were born between 1958-1970 or so. FWIW. There might be a slightly different demographic picture in place 30 years from now.

 

[nittany03]

The U.S. Senate is named after the Senate of ancient Rome, a male-dominated society that conquered, enslaved, and subjugated people across what is modern day Europe, Asia, and Africa.

And what, pray tell, does this assertion have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[taxi1]

I predict the names of the bases will be changed eventually.

 

[Hair Warrior]

And what, pray tell, does this assertion have to do with the price of tea in China?

History is messy. Progress takes time - it doesn’t happen overnight. And names/words don’t always mean what they used to mean.

 

[Griz882]

I predict the names of the bases will be changed eventually.

I don’t.

 

[Swanee]

One only has to glance around the ready room to see how homogenous the officer corps, especially those who are pilots, is.

Is it racism? I don't think so.

Is it access? Probably. I've asked this kind of question to some really smart and talented enlisted folks who IMO would have done just as well as the rest of us in college, OCS, TBS and flight school. They've told me that it wasn't even something that they thought they could do- no one they know does this.

 

[taxi1]

In all my time in the USN I can only think of 1 incident that was clear racism...

One of the more memorable moments for me was when I and a fellow drinking buddy reservist went out to dinner with our skipper, senior O6 community leader whose day job was as a chief test pilot for Grumman. Highly accomplished. Also black.

We're at a bar in Doylestown PA, nice place, and I and my friend stepped out for phone calls or something, I forget. Skipper is standing there by his lonesome hanging out and this guy from a table with two couples sees him standing there, grabs his dirty plate and hands it to the skipper and says "I'm done with this."

Talking to him later, he said, "Shit like that happens all the time."

They've told me that it wasn't even something that they thought they could do- no one they know does this.

Yup, mentorship is such an important thing, but who is there to mentor them? Like someone else pointed out, our current senior leaders are from 30+ years ago.

 

[nittany03]

One of the more memorable moments for me was when I and a fellow drinking buddy reservist went out to dinner with our skipper, senior O6 community leader whose day job was as a chief test pilot for Grumman. Highly accomplished. Also black.

We're at a bar in Doylestown PA, nice place, and I and my friend stepped out for phone calls or something, I forget. Skipper is standing there by his lonesome hanging out and this guy from a table with two couples sees him standing there, grabs his dirty plate and hands it to the skipper and says "I'm done with this."

Talking to him later, he said, "Shit like that happens all the time."

I grew up in a pretty homogenous upper-middle-class school district. It wasn't until I put on the uniform and had the opportunity to make friends with more folks who, umm, don't share my complexion that I started to hear the stories that made me go "WTF??"