Racism in the Military

[Pags]

Hole cow Pags!! So much work to be done here. It is not legal to shoot people because they become "fiesty". And cops do not shoot people for a traffic stop. This thinking is exact what I was talking about. You can imagine I feel like you would if some guy in the press wrote something preposterous about helicopter performance.

Same laws apply to police shootings as citizens defending themselves, except there is a higher standard for cops because of their training. And that is true for traffic stops as well as armed robbery in progress or any other scenario.

As to evidence. Much has been pointed out above. More and better can be found for yourself. I am not doing your research for facts you desire and should know before you opine.

You said:" BUT, the vast majority of the time it starts with the subject's behavior."

Hence my feisty comment. Sounds to me that if a cop feels like he's not being shown the proper respects to his liking then there's nothing that can stop him from pulling someone from their car, arresting them, and then have them die in jail. Kind of hard for that person to appeal after the fact.

and the fact that ANYONE should be telling their kids that "do what the cops say. Think happy thoughts and it will all be over soon " in America is kind of messed up.

i thought cops were there to help, to protect, and to serve the population. Not for the population to "grab rags" whenever the police are here and show the proper respects. As far as I can tell a cop could shoot anyone he wanted and get away with it.

and that's why I say the cops have an image problem. And hey, I did my own research and let's see what the US Commission on Civil Right's report to Pres. Trump says:
"The best available evidence reflects high rates of uses of force nationally, with increased likelihood of police use of force against people of color...Repeated and highly publicized incidents of police use of force against persons of color and people with disabilities, combined with a lack of accurate data, lack of transparency about policies and practices in place governing use of force, and lack of accountability for noncompliance foster a perception that police use of force in communities of color and the disability community is unchecked, unlawful, and unsafe."
https://www.usccr.gov › pubsPDF
Police Use of Force - U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

The people have lost faith in how police are employed in America. To ignore or wish away that perception is...I don't know. Awful? Awfully typical? Or maybe this is just another coy "I know that but I'm testing you" post.

At the end of all this I hope that all the local LE agencies take this opportunity to sit down with their communities and determine how they could do better. If LE said "hey, looks like a lot of people are mad at us we should see how we can improve" then that would be a good first.step. I do think that most cops join out of a desire to serve and to do well but their agencies need to figure out how to do that on a community level.

 

[Griz882]

Oh, you wanted more recent examples? How about these good folks in Texas? To their credit, more senior leaders of the party in Texas have condemned them but that isn't just one or two folks doing that, and they are party officials no less.

But hey, at least they aren't railing against liberal democracy! Wait, hold on a sec....“Liberal democracy is little more than a front for the war being waged against us by those who fundamentally despise not only our way of life, but life itself.”

Call it a myth or a lie, there is ample proof that the 'Southern Strategy' was neither.

Thanks for the quotes, but as I noted earlier...those are post-event. Very post event. Find me a credible book (I would call it an academic book) or peer reviewed paper that proves the strategy and I’ll certainly read it.

 

[Spekkio]

You said:" BUT, the vast majority of the time it starts with the subject's behavior."

Hence my feisty comment. Sounds to me that if a cop feels like he's not being shown the proper respects to his liking then there's nothing that can stop him from pulling someone from their car, arresting them, and then have them die in jail. Kind of hard for that person to appeal after the fact.

and the fact that ANYONE should be telling their kids that "do what the cops say. Think happy thoughts and it will all be over soon " in America is kind of messed up.

i thought cops were there to help, to protect, and to serve the population. Not for the population to "grab rags" whenever the police are here and show the proper respects. As far as I can tell a cop could shoot anyone he wanted and get away with it.

and that's why I say the cops have an image problem. And hey, I did my own research and let's see what the US Commission on Civil Right's report to Pres. Trump says:
"The best available evidence reflects high rates of uses of force nationally, with increased likelihood of police use of force against people of color...Repeated and highly publicized incidents of police use of force against persons of color and people with disabilities, combined with a lack of accurate data, lack of transparency about policies and practices in place governing use of force, and lack of accountability for noncompliance foster a perception that police use of force in communities of color and the disability community is unchecked, unlawful, and unsafe."
https://www.usccr.gov › pubsPDF
Police Use of Force - U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

If I were to distill this 100+ page report to a punch line, it wouldn't be what you quoted. The author is obviously frustrated with the sparse data, but there's a lot more meat there.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You said:" BUT, the vast majority of the time it starts with the subject's behavior."

Hence my feisty comment. Sounds to me that if a cop feels like he's not being shown the proper respects to his liking then there's nothing that can stop him from pulling someone from their car, arresting them, and then have them die in jail. Kind of hard for that person to appeal after the fact.

and the fact that ANYONE should be telling their kids that "do what the cops say. Think happy thoughts and it will all be over soon " in America is kind of messed up.

Why do you keep posting this inflammatory bullshit? There’s a lot of room for improvement for our system. No knock warrants should be exceedingly rare. Private prisons need to go away. Petty drug crimes need to go away. More oversight for police would be welcomed by me.

What doesn’t help is the over the top rhetoric and outright lies. There is no genocide. Cops aren’t hunting anyone or running wild. Cops aren’t arresting people who don’t render the proper respect for them to die in prison.

 

[Pags]

If I were to distill this 100+ page report to a punch line, it wouldn't be what you quoted. The author is obviously frustrated with the sparse data, but there's a lot more meat there.

Kudos to you for bothering to take a look. I thought that was a decent pull quote from the exec summary that was germane to this discussion and summarized the report's findings. Curious to your take.

 

[Pags]

Why do you keep posting this inflammatory bullshit? There’s a lot of room for improvement for our system. No knock warrants should be exceedingly rare. Private prisons need to go away. Petty drug crimes need to go away. More oversight for police would be welcomed by me.

What doesn’t help is the over the top rhetoric and outright lies. There is no genocide. Cops aren’t hunting anyone or running wild. Cops aren’t arresting people who don’t render the proper respect for them to die in prison.

What part of what I said is inflammatory? Where did I say genocide? Where did I say cops are running wild?

Wink said: "Respect the police. If you have to deal with a rude or racist officer, do as he says and get through it."
And
"BUT, the vast majority of the time it starts with the subject's behavior. NOTHING would have happened if the subject had complied."

I have said that cops have good intentions but that the policies they're using haven't worked and that this moment should be an opportunity for agencies/departments to reflect, engage, and as a catalyst for change. Which, from your top para, sounds like we're in agreement on.

As for whether cops have thrown people in prison for minor traffic stops recall the Sandra Bland case.

 

[HAL Pilot]

The Air Force just announced their next Chairman, a black guy....

 

[HAL Pilot]

 

[wink]

You said:" BUT, the vast majority of the time it starts with the subject's behavior."

Hence my feisty comment. Sounds to me that if a cop feels like he's not being shown the proper respects to his liking then there's nothing that can stop him from pulling someone from their car, arresting them, and then have them die in jail. Kind of hard for that person to appeal after the fact.

Lets try this again. I referred to shooting only as it referred to you comments about shootings. Most of my post was referring to use of force in general. That includes any time an officer lays hands on a subject. Your visceral reaction to the requirement someone has to get out of a car is proof you don't understand police work. That is OK. It isn't your jam. But if you are going to comment, try and respect your ignorance on the subject. It is very often legal and appropriate to have someone get out of a car. It is then a legal order. Take up your beef with the Supreme Court, which by way of case law, has essentially established how police encounters with citizens go down. Ignorance of the law and lack of respect for the police is what drives people to insist they "know their rights" and resist. It is my observation, that the louder someone screams they know their rights, the less they know them and it gets them in trouble.

and the fact that ANYONE should be telling their kids that "do what the cops say. Think happy thoughts and it will all be over soon " in America is kind of messed up.

i thought cops were there to help, to protect, and to serve the population. Not for the population to "grab rags" whenever the police are here and show the proper respects. As far as I can tell a cop could shoot anyone he wanted and get away with it.

If you think cops can shoot who they want, you are a victim of the false narrative. And yes, people should be taught to trust cops. Were you not taught to respect authority? That if you got lost to look for a cop? Do you not trust them to go through your home clearing it for your safety when you call for an open door after returning home from a night out? If people don't think that, it is because they were taught to disrespect cops and there is scant reason for that.

I say the cops have an image problem. And hey, I did my own research and let's see what the US Commission on Civil Right's report to Pres. Trump says:
"The best available evidence reflects high rates of uses of force nationally, with increased likelihood of police use of force against people of color...Repeated and highly publicized incidents of police use of force against persons of color and people with disabilities, combined with a lack of accurate data, lack of transparency about policies and practices in place governing use of force, and lack of accountability for noncompliance foster a perception that police use of force in communities of color and the disability community is unchecked, unlawful, and unsafe."
https://www.usccr.gov › pubsPDF

Those are raw use of force numbers. It says nothing, that I could find, about justification. Guy points a gun at a cop and gets shot by the cop, it is in those numbers. Suspect turns into an officer trying to cuff him and he takes a swing at the cop, he is going to the ground. That is in those numbers. That sort of thing is justified. Strip out those number and you will see a very different picture of use of force.

The people have lost faith in how police are employed in America. To ignore or wish away that perception is...I don't know. Awful? Awfully typical? Or maybe this is just another coy "I know that but I'm testing you" post.

Justification is key but we can not talk about it because to do so shows most of these people in a bad light. Can't point out the guy that got tased was on drugs and tried to stick the cop with a knife. No no. Because the you tube video looks so bad, man convulsing in pain on the ground. Would we prefer to see a video of the cops body cam recording sky as he lays on his back bleeding out?

The American people have not lost faith in LE. Your perception is wrong. I am quite certain the numbers would look a little different today since there is so much dishonesty out there about use of force incidents in the news. But last year, even considering all the incidents that we hear about today, Gallop found the following.
The police are the second most trusted institution in the country. I doubt they will drop to third place even after these last few weeks. This crisis of confidence you find is a myth. Sure, I'd like to see better numbers. We should work for it. But you are just wrong. Considering people trust police more than hospitals and the news that tells them how bad the police are, and congress, who makes the laws LE enforces or SCOTUS who via case law rules what tactics are constitutional under what justification. I think the cops are doing OK. Only 17% of Americans have little or no trust in the police. Eight percent of Americans think Elvis is alive. Hell, Americans trust, by a significant margin, the police more than the bank where they keep their money . The reason for this is simple. Most Americans, of all colors, do respect the police and are law abiding enough they do not have altercations with police. Instead, their encounters with police are when they call them to keep the peace in their neighborhood, provide first aid at an accident site, protect them from an abusive boyfriend, get their sister in law to mental heath care, or take the homeless dude harassing young girls at the 7-11 into custody. And that is what 90% of the cops do 90% of their time.

American Institution	Great deal or quite a lot of confidence.
Military	73%
Police	53%
Supreme Court	38%
Medical	36%
TV News	18%
Congress	11%

 

[Brett327]

Wink, I’ll give you this.. watching you be put through your paces has been a fascinating study in why so many LEOs insist that there’s no problem with how they police. This thread could be a case study for cities that want to institute real reform.

 

[wink]

Wink, I’ll give you this.. watching you be put through your paces has been a fascinating study in why so many LEOs insist that there’s no problem with how they police. This thread could be a case study for cities that want to institute real reform.

Got me wrong, friend. I am commenting on specific opinions that are ill-informed. I never said ANYWHERE that reform is not necessary. Question is, where to focus reform for the results you want. I'd be happy to share my personal opinions on the subject. But I am afraid no one here would care since my interest is in safety (for all) and effectiveness regardless of whether it promotes the systemic racist view or not.

Here is a news flash for everyone that has gone to the mat on the Chauvin is a racist and killed Floyd because he is black. They knew each other. Worked together at a night club. Investigators are looking into an "altercation " they had. It may be that Chauvin was just an angry dude trying to get even by showing Floyd who the boss was when he could hide behind a badge. No less repugnant then the current narrative, but if someone is looking to Floyd's death as the racist cop archetype, maybe another look is necessary.

 

[taxi1]

Here is a news flash for everyone that has gone to the mat on the Chauvin is a racist and killed Floyd because he is black. They knew each other. Worked together at a night club.

Yeah, that's a bizarre twist to the story.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Nuance and details are important. But, we live in a knee jerk society/ news cycle.

 

[Pags]

Lets try this again. I referred to shooting only as it referred to you comments about shootings. Most of my post was referring to use of force in general. That includes any time an officer lays hands on a subject. Your visceral reaction to the requirement someone has to get out of a car is proof you don't understand police work. That is OK. It isn't your jam. But if you are going to comment, try and respect your ignorance on the subject. It is very often legal and appropriate to have someone get out of a car. It is then a legal order. Take up your beef with the Supreme Court, which by way of case law, has essentially established how police encounters with citizens go down. Ignorance of the law and lack of respect for the police is what drives people to insist they "know their rights" and resist. It is my observation, that the louder someone screams they know their rights, the less they know them and it gets them in trouble.
If you think cops can shoot who they want, you are a victim of the false narrative. And yes, people should be taught to trust cops. Were you not taught to respect authority? That if you got lost to look for a cop? Do you not trust them to go through your home clearing it for your safety when you call for an open door after returning home from a night out? If people don't think that, it is because they were taught to disrespect cops and there is scant reason for that.

Those are raw use of force numbers. It says nothing, that I could find, about justification. Guy points a gun at a cop and gets shot by the cop, it is in those numbers. Suspect turns into an officer trying to cuff him and he takes a swing at the cop, he is going to the ground. That is in those numbers. That sort of thing is justified. Strip out those number and you will see a very different picture of use of force.

Justification is key but we can not talk about it because to do so shows most of these people in a bad light. Can't point out the guy that got tased was on drugs and tried to stick the cop with a knife. No no. Because the you tube video looks so bad, man convulsing in pain on the ground. Would we prefer to see a video of the cops body cam recording sky as he lays on his back bleeding out?

The American people have not lost faith in LE. Your perception is wrong. I am quite certain the numbers would look a little different today since there is so much dishonesty out there about use of force incidents in the news. But last year, even considering all the incidents that we hear about today, Gallop found the following.
The police are the second most trusted institution in the country. I doubt they will drop to third place even after these last few weeks. This crisis of confidence you find is a myth. Sure, I'd like to see better numbers. We should work for it. But you are just wrong. Considering people trust police more than hospitals and the news that tells them how bad the police are, and congress, who makes the laws LE enforces or SCOTUS who via case law rules what tactics are constitutional under what justification. I think the cops are doing OK. Only 17% of Americans have little or no trust in the police. Eight percent of Americans think Elvis is alive. Hell, Americans trust, by a significant margin, the police more than the bank where they keep their money . The reason for this is simple. Most Americans, of all colors, do respect the police and are law abiding enough they do not have altercations with police. Instead, their encounters with police are when they call them to keep the peace in their neighborhood, provide first aid at an accident site, protect them from an abusive boyfriend, get their sister in law to mental heath care, or take the homeless dude harassing young girls at the 7-11 into custody. And that is what 90% of the cops do 90% of their time.

American Institution	Great deal or quite a lot of confidence.
Military	73%
Police	53%
Supreme Court	38%
Medical	36%
TV News	18%
Congress	11%

Pull your head out of your ass wink. There have been 10+ days of mass protests across the entire country and world related to the perceived conduct of police forces. At the very least LE has an image problem that it needs to fix. If departments and agencies are still telling themselves that there's a "false narrative" after all this then they're being willfully ignorant and, frankly, irresponsible to the communities they supposedly serve.

 

[Gonzo08]

John Oliver spent his entire show this past weekend discussing the problems with Police in the US and steps to reform the "organization". He's discussed a lot of heavy topics in his time at Last Week Tonight, but this is the first time I've ever seen him get this emotional about a subject.