Question for helo guys

[illinijoe05]

The new MH-60s is supposedly going to be able to be loaded out as an armed version with hellfires and chin mounted guns. Does this mean that navy helos are going to move more towards a strike mission? Possibly supporting army, marine, nswf assets, or even the new expediationary boat squadrons? I know that the 60B currently has hellfires but from what i understand they ahve never been fired in anger. Also in hearing about the new helo master paln Ive come to understand that there wil be 2 types of helo squadrons HSM and HSC.(or HCS?) WHat are the real differences between the 2. As an HSC guy what kind of missions lifestyle can one expect versus and HSM guy.
Thanks
Joe

 

[HH-60H]

Most of this has been discussed extensively, do a quick search and you should find a lot of info.

Both the HSL and HS community have hellfire missiles. While we have never fired one "in anger," we have also never dropped a torpedo "in anger" either.

 

[Bevo16]

The Sierra Block 3 Armed Helo is going to replace the HH-60H that is flown by HS and HCS squadrons today. There is not going to be a chin mounted weapon on the Armed Helo. It will have crew served weapons just like the HH (.50 Cal and M-240), but will have the capability to carry up to 8 Hellfire, rockets, or forward firing machine guns.

Navy Helicopter squadrons are already moving towards a strike mission. For at least the last 2 years, each HS squadron that was deployed on a carrier to the Arabian Gulf has detached their HH's to work overland missions. HS-15 does not have a carrier to work with anymore since the JFK is broken, so they are running air ambulance in country.

Starting in the summer of next year, HS squadrons are going to start trading in their H&F model aircraft for new S block 3 models. They will no longer be Helicopter Anti-Submarine (HS) and will become Helicopter Sea Combat squadrons (HSC). These squadrons will totally drop the ASW mission and will focus on strike warfare, special warfare support, and combat search and rescue.

HSL squadrons are going to upgrade from the B model to the Romeo. The major difference is that the Romeo has a dipping sonar that the Bravo did not have. (HS squadrons also flew the F model, which was the dipper). The Romeo also has surface search radar, Magnetic Anomoly Detector (MAD), a large sonobouy launcher, and FLIR/Hellfire. The Romeo will not have the equipment required to fly overland in a hostile environment. As HSL squadrons transition, they will become HSM, instead of HSL. I am pretty sure that the M stands for multi-purpose. I know that the L stood for light. ASW is going to be the bread and butter of HSM life. The FLIR/Hellfire system will allow them to attack small boats.

The big change in deployment schedules is going be that HSM squadrons will deploy as a squadron instead of the old method of 2 aircraft detachments on tin cans. Air Wings will deploy on the carrier with an HSC and HSM squadron, and the squadrons will det out aircraft to the ships in the strike group from the carrier. HS squadrons are already used to this, but HSL squadron CO's never went on deployment. O-4's were the DET OIC's.

 

[Gatordev]

Bevo, you seem to continue to perpetuate the HS bag of lies. It's no wonder the HS community doesn't want to join the HSM community (and in some areas, I understand why).

The Sierra Block 3 Armed Helo is going to replace the HH-60H that is flown by HS and HCS squadrons today. There is not going to be a chin mounted weapon on the Armed Helo. It will have crew served weapons just like the HH (.50 Cal and M-240), but will have the capability to carry up to 8 Hellfire, rockets, or forward firing machine guns.

Word on the street is that all Navy helos capabable of shooting Hellfires (-60B, H, and the BLK III Sierras) will also be outfitted w/ LOGIR, which is what replaced the idea of putting forward firing guns on Navy helos.

Navy Helicopter squadrons are already moving towards a strike mission. For at least the last 2 years, each HS squadron that was deployed on a carrier to the Arabian Gulf has detached their HH's to work overland missions.

Overland does not equal Strike. It's one subset of strike. And illinoisjoe, Navy helos have been practicing Strike for many years, to include SWTIs (Seahawk Weapon Tactics Instructors) and the SWTI school, which is like Top Gun for helo guys...or so the SWTIs like to say.

As HSL squadrons transition, they will become HSM, instead of HSL. I am pretty sure that the M stands for multi-purpose. I know that the L stood for light. ASW is going to be the bread and butter of HSM life. The FLIR/Hellfire system will allow them to attack small boats.

Ummm, no. HSM will still be used for SSC just like everyone else is. While it may be the only ASW platform in the airwing or ESG, it's still going to be a player for MIO/VBSS and the Strike Control aircraft role for the Army, should it be needed.

The big change in deployment schedules is going be that HSM squadrons will deploy as a squadron instead of the old method of 2 aircraft detachments on tin cans. Air Wings will deploy on the carrier with an HSC and HSM squadron, and the squadrons will det out aircraft to the ships in the strike group from the carrier. HS squadrons are already used to this, but HSL squadron CO's never went on deployment. O-4's were the DET OIC's.

Again, not entirely true. HSL-47 has already deployed as a squadron once, and is either about to again, or there's another one on the sea wall that's about to. Also, not all HSM squadrons will be part of the airwing (for better or worse). There will still be expeditionary squadrons to support ESGs, CrackPACs and the random SAG that pops up. Also, not all OICs were O-4s. Some have been O-3s, and the FTS/TAR guys have O-5s as OICs. I'm just nitpicking now.

 

[illinijoe05]

So will vert rep be done by hsc or hsm?

 

[Gatordev]

It primarily is, and will be, done by HSC.

 

[Bevo16]

Bevo, you seem to continue to perpetuate the HS bag of lies. It's no wonder the HS community doesn't want to join the HSM community (and in some areas, I understand why). Word on the street is that all Navy helos capabable of shooting Hellfires (-60B, H, and the BLK III Sierras) will also be outfitted w/ LOGIR, which is what replaced the idea of putting forward firing guns on Navy helos.

If you say so, I have not been looking that deep into exactly what the Romeo is going to get. You are right though, not many HS guys want anything to do with HSM. Everyone is happy to be rid of the ASW mission. We will happily wave to you guys in the dip areas while we head out to East County though. The idea of forward firing guns gets a different answer every week. I know that some of the HCS guys have the GAU-17, and they can rig it so it is hands off for the crewman. He just locks it to a forward position and the pilots control it. I would like that option. The GAU-17 is a bad-ass weapon.

Overland does not equal Strike. It's one subset of strike .

Strike=Overland in the HS world. We have 2 warfare areas that we qualify in, sea combat and strike. There are some skill sets that transfer between both, but in my community, if you talk about a flight in the "Strike Syllabus", everyone knows that you are going through the mountians out to the desert. It may just be just nav training, a CSAR ex, or a NSW mission, but it's all strike.

Nobody would call the flights that we did in Iraq on my last cruise "Strike Flights". However, it was the skillset that HS pilots have from going through the "Strike Syllabus" that allowed us to flex and do was was asked of us.

Ummm, no. HSM will still be used for SSC just like everyone else is. While it may be the only ASW platform in the airwing or ESG, it's still going to be a player for MIO/VBSS and the Strike Control aircraft role for the Army, should it be needed.

Ah, the wonderful world of SSC. Yup, you will be a player in that. How could I forget? The Romeo will be the best helo in the fleet for SSC. You get all the 3W2 time that you want. It's role in VBSS will probably be as a comm platform and maybe a sniper platform at the most. It's not like you are going to be able to fit a squad of SEALs in the back of that thing. That will be the Sierra's job.

You are going to have to explain how/why someone would ever want to use a Romeo as a Strike Control aircraft for the Army. Sure it has radios, but without an ASE package, it would be a sitting duck for an IR MANPAD.

HSL-47 has already deployed as a squadron once, and is either about to again, or there's another one on the sea wall that's about to. Also, not all HSM squadrons will be part of the airwing (for better or worse).

I think that they went out with HS-2. It's kind of a strange deal that those guys are running, but I guess they want to get them used to the idea. Did the CO of that HSL squadron deploy with them?

 

[Bevo16]

So will vert rep be done by hsc or hsm?

Gator is right, HSC will handle the vert-rep. It has yet to be decided how exactly it is going to work. HSC-21 is the only vert-rep squadron on the west coast and right now they have all Block 1 model Sierras. These aircraft are very limited on gas, but they are lighter than hell and have tons of power.

I don't know if they (21) is going to eventually get the armed helo or not. The structure of the HSC community is either still up in the air, or it just has not gotten down to the junior officer level yet.

You can do vert-rep in a F or H model, but it's not something that we do a lot of. The old HC bubbas are really good at it though.

 

[Brett327]

without an ASE package, it would be a sitting duck for an IR MANPAD.

As opposed to those pesky radar guided MANPADS? Don't kid yourselves. As someone who studies this kind of thing, all helos are sitting ducks for modern manpads - ASE or otherwise - and you won't have the G available to beat whatever leaks through your CM in the endgame. Isn't that testing data available in your pubs? I hope your tactics aren't just to hope that it's an SA-7.

Mmm, Kool Aid,

Brett

 

[ChuckMK23]

As opposed to those pesky radar guided MANPADS? Don't kid yourselves. As someone who studies this kind of thing, all helos are sitting ducks for modern manpads - ASE or otherwise - and you won't have the G available to beat whatever leaks through your CM in the endgame. Isn't that testing data available in your pubs? I hope your tactics aren't just to hope that it's an SA-7.

Mmm, Kool Aid,

Brett

Damn it happened again - I am agreeing with Brett. What the f*ck is the world coming to?

 

[ChuckMK23]

Bottom line boys - go compete with AF helo community. You guys have the truly mobile platforms to deploy from, you don't need a C-5 to take your aircraft where you need to go, as Naval Officers you know how to lead and think at the same time. Seriously - take on the AF guys for budget, missions, and resources. That should be the name of the game for HSC

 

[Bevo16]

As opposed to those pesky radar guided MANPADS? Don't kid yourselves. As someone who studies this kind of thing, all helos are sitting ducks for modern manpads - ASE or otherwise - and you won't have the G available to beat whatever leaks through your CM in the endgame. Isn't that testing data available in your pubs? I hope your tactics aren't just to hope that it's an SA-7.

Brett

Yea, the testing data is available in our pubs. You should read it sometime. It would keep you from talking about G loads and helo tactics in the same paragraph..

You are over your head on this one.

 

[Gatordev]

Everyone is happy to be rid of the ASW mission. We will happily wave to you guys in the dip areas while we head out to East County though. The idea of forward firing guns gets a different answer every week. I know that some of the HCS guys have the GAU-17, and they can rig it so it is hands off for the crewman. He just locks it to a forward position and the pilots control it. I would like that option. The GAU-17 is a bad-ass weapon.

I'm happy to say that the only time I've been in the dips was on a Natops check in the RAG or when returning to mom after dropping someone off one night. As for forward firing...I can tell we're not going to get anywhere arguing back and forth, but the -17 isn't a FFG. Obviously you've made it to fire forward, but I'm talking about a new weapon system. NAVAIR has repeatedly not gone in that direction, and is leaning towards LOGIR. That was 6-8 months ago, so maybe things have changed, but I seriously doubt anything has changed that quickly in the Navy.

Strike=Overland in the HS world. We have 2 warfare areas that we qualify in, sea combat and strike. There are some skill sets that transfer between both, but in my community, if you talk about a flight in the "Strike Syllabus", everyone knows that you are going through the mountians out to the desert. It may just be just nav training, a CSAR ex, or a NSW mission, but it's all strike.

Nobody would call the flights that we did in Iraq on my last cruise "Strike Flights". However, it was the skillset that HS pilots have from going through the "Strike Syllabus" that allowed us to flex and do was was asked of us.

What I'm saying is that there's a bigger world out there than just HS. Strike does not equal overland. Ask the TacAir guys. They're not going to say what they practice is overland warfare (exclusively) when they say strike. As such, LAMPS can fullfil a "Strike" mission if tasked, it's just going to be over water. I'm not saying HS doesn't classify it differently, in house. I'm just saying it's not as limiting a term as you're making it out to be.

Ah, the wonderful world of SSC. Yup, you will be a player in that. How could I forget? The Romeo will be the best helo in the fleet for SSC. You get all the 3W2 time that you want.

With the exception of the P-3, I agree. It's interesting that you guys classify it differently than we do. I don't remember what the code is, but it was different. I wonder if it has something to do w/ the airwing.

It's role in VBSS will probably be as a comm platform and maybe a sniper platform at the most. It's not like you are going to be able to fit a squad of SEALs in the back of that thing. That will be the Sierra's job.

No, the Romeo wouldn't be able to fit a team in the back, just like the Bravo doesn't fit one now, but... The Bravo was constantly supporting VBSS before OIF (not sure what they do now). It's always been the comm and sniper platform either in lieu of or in concert with HS. Nothing new there.

You are going to have to explain how/why someone would ever want to use a Romeo as a Strike Control aircraft for the Army. Sure it has radios, but without an ASE package, it would be a sitting duck for an IR MANPAD.

You're kidding right? I can't really go into details here, but think about it. A platform w/ radar and radios? This is nothing new to the Bravo, let alone the Romeo. Again, my point of my original post was to show there's more going on than just what HS perceives.

As for ASE, it's probably hard for you to answer this question w/ OPSEC, but besides the gear being newer and probably better integrated (ie, it's an actual "ASE package" instead of the components kluged together), big picture-wise, what's different between a Hotel and the Bravo/Romeo other than the HIRS. I know the system is better implemented and perhaps more effective, but a new gen MANPAD is an equal opportunity killer. This is more of a rhetorical question for here. Again, I understand the bad guys' Pk is probably lower for you guys in the Hotel.

I think that they went out with HS-2. It's kind of a strange deal that those guys are running, but I guess they want to get them used to the idea. Did the CO of that HSL squadron deploy with them?

Yup. It was the whole squadron. They supported the Tsunami relief, so whatever CVW that was.

 

[Brett327]

Yea, the testing data is available in our pubs. You should read it sometime. It would keep you from talking about G loads and helo tactics in the same paragraph..

You are over your head on this one.

Such hostility. Check PM and I think you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Brett

 

[gregsivers]

This is pretty interesting to read for me, I just put in my selection with HSL as my top choice, hoping I get it. I seem to be the odd duck, everyone else wants HSC, so I think the kool-aid is working here too.