Promotion in the IRR

[BrianL76]

The break in service alone could be worked around, but based on the info you supplied, the issue will be you didn't have any qualifying years while you were in IRR status. If you separated active in 2004 and resigned outright in 2010, that would be 6 "bad" years toward retirement. It could make promoting to O4 difficult; even if you make O4, you may have a tough time getting to 18yrs and reaching sanctuary to finish retirement as an officer. You could work around that by enlisting to finish up, though.

Everybody has a different take on breaks in service and they confuse what that really means. A break in service starts from when you discharge (or resign) and then return...the gap between those periods. Your time between attrition and resignation is not a break in service. You were still IRR, just not getting qualifying years toward retirement. The break in service is bad because you are not doing anything military at all and it has to be explained when it comes time for promotion.

However, I would not let this deter me from making the attempt to put in a package and seeing what happens. If reaching retirement as an officer becomes a problem, you can enlist and still receive the retirement rate based on your highest rank achieved.

Subreservist, thanks for the quick and helpful reply. Please bear with me as this side of the discussion is all very new to me and I'm trying to consider all aspects of this before moving forward. With that being said, my interest in this is strictly on the reserve side. Does sanctuary also apply on the reserve side?

Also, I'm curious how my case would be handled? Would DCOIC be required for me, given that I've already been through OCS? Could I not simply be sworn in again? Lastly, is it possibile (even likely) they bring me back in at Ensign? If so, would that not alleviate the time-on-IRR issue? I guess one question is how would the IRR time be treated? Even if it's treated as 6 bad years, given my age (37) it seems like I should still be able to accrue 20 good years (I'd actually only need 19-ish, right?) before 60.

 

[subreservist]

Yep, reserves has a sanctuary...it's not easy to read up on it, but we found it...it's covered somewhere in one of these threads, but I'm too lazy to dig it up!

Your other questions can only be answered by the folks doing the paperwork to process you back in...I don't think we have too many on this board that are privy to the behind-the-scenes on how that works. There is a chance they bring you in at a lower rank...my understanding is that decision is based on your break in service, which again is different from your bad years in IRR. Nothing alleviates the bad years (as long as you stay a reservist). If they did bring you in at a lower rank, it most likely would be LTjg.

Also, your age doesn't not factor into the decision either. Age would come into play as a general entry requiremnt (mainly for first time entrants, but it does impact prior service also) in order to achieve enough qualifying years by age 60. However, again, this does not change the bad years accrued already. The bad years goes against your commissioned years of service which is limited by your paygrade/rank. If you don't promote prior to reaching that max for your rank, you are given the boot.

O4 is the easiest example to use: At that rank you are entitled to 20 years of commissioned service. Let's say you are an O4; when you get to 20 commissioned years, you will only have 20-6(bad years)=14 good years to retirement. The 14 is also below the 18yr sanctuary threshold. Your workaround would be to enlist for the remaining 6 years and get paid at the higher rank upon reaching 60 (enlisted don't have the commisioned year "limitation" we have).

I can't see being brought in at a lower rank as helpful or hurtful; just a decision the admin folks will make when re-determining your precedence number based off your break in service.

Correction about there being nothing to alleviate the bad years: Making O5 essentially eradicates it, because your limit moves to 28 years of commisioned service, which covers dang near everyone bad year issue!

 

[BrianL76]

Thanks again for the explanation. Things are starting to clear up a bit. I have a few more questions:

1. What is the line in the sand? 20 years of commissioned service, age 60, or both? If it's 20 years of commissioned service, then I see the problem. If it's by age, then I fail to see the problem. I was unaware of the # of commissioned years entitlement (or restriction in my case) associated with each rank.
2. The other issue is promotability? Assuming I'm brought back at LT or lower, it sounds like it might be difficult-to-impossible for me to make O-4 given my 6 bad years?

Out of curiosity, would returning to active (assuming it was even possible) change anything?

Thanks.

 

[subreservist]

1) For reserve retirement, you need 20 QUALIFYING years of service, defined as having obtained a minimum of 50 points within your anniversary year. Less than 50 points in your anniversary year is a bad year toward retirement (meaning it does not count toward retirement), but your commissioned years of service counter still ticks off (so, basically you wasted a reserve year). However, any points you got (let's say you got 15 points that year), still goes to your total retirement points, should you make it to 20.

A lot of this jargon is covered in other areas of the board, and a lot of it is not intuitive until you are actually a reservist needing to figure it out. Trying to understand it now will just create more questions for you. Age is not a problem for you...qualifying years is the issue, (not to be confused with commisioned years, but the 2 terms are connected via your bad years; when you have no bad years, they are the same term!)

2) As you saw when you attrited, LTjg and LT are automatic (more or less). LCDR is less automatic, although most make it...but O4 is the first time you have to be board selected. When you go up for board, it is readily apparent that your last FITREP was received in the early 2000's, and most would automatically pass you over. You can negate that by getting new FITREPs ASAP upon affiliation with the reserves and writing a letter. It's not impossible, just difficult.

Again, this will just create more questions...my advice is if you really want to do this, PUT IN! If you are selected to return, you can make a yes or no decision at that point. But right now, this info does you no good when the decision of being in isn't on the table yet.

 

[vxc961]

Ask your recruiter, but it seems to me you'll get screwed by the 20 years of commissioned service. Right now you have 8 years of commissioned service, with 2 good years (14 months).

Are you going in as an O3? What rank you re-enter the navy with will be very important. Ask your recruiter, then let us know.

Also ask when you might be eligible for O4. You'll want to prep for that board (AW can help), and then you're entitled to 20 years commissioned service. Lots of designators are offered "continuation" which lets them get to 24 years of commissioned service as O4s (this changes every 2 years I think, so keep checking w/bupers. With a few drilling years as an O5 you'll probably make 05 and be OK.

Either way, it sounds like your somebody who wants to serve and got a bit of a raw deal--go for it and you can make it work.

 

[das]

Involuntary mobs are rapidly becoming very rare, if you mob nowadays you almost have to have volunteered. I only know one person who is really 'involuntarily' mob'd right now, the rest are all volunteers except on paper.

I know this was from last month, but FWIW, I am currently on involuntary MOB as an O-2 1815. (Sweet MOB, though...DEVGRU.)

 

[vxc961]

I know this was from last month, but FWIW, I am currently on involuntary MOB as an O-2 1815. (Sweet MOB, though...DEVGRU.)

Nope, I appreciate the info. I'm going SELRES, largely because of the "there were only 35 (or whatever) involuntary MOBs this year! " PR campaign. As I get closer and closer though, I get more worried about getting MOB'd right away! Well, at least I know the risks!

 

[vxc961]

This is the link the to the selection criteria for the FY15 Reserve O-5 line selection board: http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-n...5line/Documents/FY15/RO5L Convening Order.pdf

A few things to note:
-they where directed to promote 75% of the *in-zone* URL LCDRs. So, when you lump the above zone guys in, I'd guess it's probably 60% of the guys who go before the board (I'm punting here)
-The board looks at who is "fully qualified", then "best qualified". So, basically the board does a "crunch". The members vote their confidence on each record, so if you're not "fully qualified", you'll get shot down and never even make it to the "best qualified" discussion.
-For this board (and many others), it says something like "participating in SELRES will be a strong factor in determining those fully qualified officers". I'm paraphrasing here.
-IRR *are* considered for promotion
-Given the SELRES bullet above, this basically means that IRR is considered for Failure of Selection (FOS).

The convening order isn't available until after the board, but given that things don't change too much from year to year, it's a good reference doc for the next board. Good luck to anybody up for promotion!

 

[Sam I am]

"-Given the SELRES bullet above, this basically means that IRR is considered for Failure of Selection (FOS)."

 

[vxc961]

"-Given the SELRES bullet above, this basically means that IRR is considered for Failure of Selection (FOS)."

View attachment 14566

I've got a buddy who did six (?) years in the IRR, but got right in with a unit, mobilized, and then paid the $25 for association of the US Navy (ausn) to do a service record review. They basically told him that with no fitrep history, he was going to be out of luck for making O-5. Bummer...

 

[subreservist]

Thought I'd post this here...nothing new information-wise and it's an old article, but it kinda answers the sanctuary question without having to decipher the manual:
https://www.ausn.org/Portals/0/pdfs/magazine/june-2009/officer-attrition-101.pdf

The Reserve O5 results should be out in less than 2 months for those in the running...

 

[SuperHumanResources]

I was a recorder on an O-5 board several years ago, and I remember a guy with a great record who gone IRR right before the board. The members pushed for him, but the admiral said "sorry, Active Status Pool can't promote". Maybe I misunderstood something though?

In talking (calls/emails) with BUPERS about the subject, I never got a straight answer, but ITo got the impression everyone there thinks that since there are no fitreps in the IRR, you're just really not competitive at all, but in the situation of somebody who drilled then went IRR right before the board, you'd be OK.

To counter my own first paragraph, I have a friend who's an 1135 who was IRR, but would do ADT/ADSW (or whatever) to get his points, and he promoted to O-5 in the IRR.

So, I'd still be a little weary about, but it seems like my observation six or so years ago was wrong, or circumstances have changed, and you *can* promote to O-5 in the IRR. I've looked, and haven't found an instruction or memo to verify that though.

Members in the ASP/IRR are eligible for promotion and their records will be looked at during the promotion board. The trouble is that most members if the ASP do not have a current photo, lack any recent FITREPS, and are probably missing other items from their record. As such, they tend to not promote. I've sat several boards where this was the case.

 

[vxc961]

are we saying the same thing?

My one data point was somebody arguing for an O4 who went IRR right before the board. the board president said "sorry, active status...he should have stayed in a few more months".

You're correct that many IRR don't take care of their records, but I think even if they did, current policy will prevent them from promoting. I take it as an interpretation of the board precept which says something like "...participation in SELRES will be a factor in determining those fully (or best?) qualified..."

I hope I'm wrong, and if you're HR you certainly know more than I do--I'm just wondering if you're going off the standard "IRR will be considered for promotion" blurb or something else.

Members in the ASP/IRR are eligible for promotion and their records will be looked at during the promotion board. The trouble is that most members if the ASP do not have a current photo, lack any recent FITREPS, and are probably missing other items from their record. As such, they tend to not promote. I've sat several boards where this was the case.

 

[SuperHumanResources]

are we saying the same thing?

My one data point was somebody arguing for an O4 who went IRR right before the board. the board president said "sorry, active status...he should have stayed in a few more months".

You're correct that many IRR don't take care of their records, but I think even if they did, current policy will prevent them from promoting. I take it as an interpretation of the board precept which says something like "...participation in SELRES will be a factor in determining those fully (or best?) qualified..."

I hope I'm wrong, and if you're HR you certainly know more than I do--I'm just wondering if you're going off the standard "IRR will be considered for promotion" blurb or something else.

I believe that we are saying the same thing. There is no policy in place that puts members in the ASP/IRR at a disadvantage when it comes to promotion. The item that normally prevents them from promoting is an incomplete or out of date record and a lack of FITREPS. Participation is of course an important factor in considering promotion. Many members of the board feel that if a member was serious about wanting to promote that they would be a drilling SELRES or at least drilling in the VTU. It is similar to a CO not wanting to give the EP to a member who has dropped his letter of retirement. Fair or unfair, the board will reward participation. That is the behavior that they want to encourage. If you are in the ASP/IRR and up for promotion, I would ensure that my record is up to date and accurate. I would also write a letter to the board stating the reason why I was not able to drill and my projected timeline for when I plan on returning to the SELRES. Communication is key. Correspondence courses are not an indicator of participation as far as the board is concerned. Volunteering for funeral honors at the local NOSC is a better way of showing the board that you are serious about maintaining your status in the Navy Reserve. Just my two cents from what I have seen from several statutory boards.

 

[lostSeaBee]

Has anyone here been promoted from O-4 to O-5 while spending there entire time as O-4 in the IRR?