Promotion in the IRR

[vxc961]

The response from PERS: "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." brings up a suspicion that I have always had regarding 2XFOS in regards to O-3s and above.

I have a theory that 2XFOS is really meant for Active Duty O-3s and above.

But someone recently mentioned in this forum that he was in a Selection Board recently and the rule was "no IRR O-4s will be selected" So this pretty much nullifies "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." They will look at the reserve O-4, yes, but just never select if IRR (but O-4 SELRES still have a shot?).

What do you guys think?

(I also think a thread should be made regarding individuals trying to stay alive and advance in the IRR).

Atmahan, I think you're right. See below from the BUPERS website.

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/generalboardinfo/Pages/StatusNonSelect.aspx


If not selected for promotion
If you did not select for promotion, you will continue to be looked at for promotion as an above zone eligible each year until promoted or your status in the Navy changes (e.g. retirement, resignation, release from active duty, lateral transfer, etc.) This applies to both in zone and above zone officers that do not select for promotion.

For officers who have not selected for promotion 2 or more times, the Secretary of the Navy will publish continuation policy each year towards the end of December. For more information on continuation and the current year’s continuation policy please view the following page: Continuation. To determine if you have been selected for continuation, log onto your Bupers On Line (BOL) account. Continuation board selection results, as applicable, will be posted under the advancement link in your BOL account. If you have been offered continuation in the past, your continuation status will not be affected by this year’s continuation policy unless your continuation period is expiring.

For failure of selection (FOS) counseling, active duty and full time support (FTS) officers should contact their detailer. Reserve officers should contact their respective community manager listed at the following website: Reserve/SELRES OCMs.

Other information for non-selects

Sanctuary

Active duty officers in the grades of Lieutenant Commander and below who have not been selected for promotion 2 or more times, and are within two years of qualifying for retirement on the first day of the seventh month following approval of a promotion board's results, will be retained until retirement eligible per 10 U.S.C. § 632 : US Code - Section 632. This circumstance is informally known as "sanctuary."

Please note that officers in the grades of Lieutenant Commander and below who have failed of selection for promotion to the next higher grade for the second time, and whose name is not on a list of officers recommended for promotion to the next higher grade shall, if eligible for retirement under any provision of law (most commonly 20 years of active service), be retired under that law on the date requested by the officer and approved by the Secretary of the Navy. The officer may request a retirement date up to but not later than the first day of the seventh calendar month beginning after the month in which the President approves the report of the board which considered him for the second time. For further information on officer retirements please contact PERS-83, Officer Retirements, at 901-874-3180.

 

[Flash]

Are you sure that's totally right? I think the "sanctuary" provision applies. I'm not a lawyer, but basically if, on the day they will kick you out, you'll have at least 18 "good years", they'll give you three years to get your 20, *then* boot you out.......

Sanctuary applies to 18 years of active duty time for a reservist, not 18 'good years' in the reserves.

 

[vxc961]

Sanctuary applies to 18 years of active duty time for a reservist, not 18 'good years' in the reserves.

I think there's two different meanings for sanctuary. One is to let a reservist with 18 active years, who does enough AT/ADSW(not IDT, and I forget what else) to get 20 years of "active" time, and collect an active duty retirement.

The other applies to not canning somebody with their nose at the retirement finish line.

I could be wrong there, but that's how the retirement counselor explained it to me at BUPERS...He seemed liked he knew what he was talking about, but again, I could be wrong or things may have changed.

 

[Flash]

I think there's two different meanings for sanctuary......The other applies to not canning somebody with their nose at the retirement finish line.

I could be wrong there, but that's how the retirement counselor explained it to me at BUPERS...He seemed liked he knew what he was talking about, but again, I could be wrong or things may have changed.

I have never heard that santurary applied to someone near the retirement finish line. I have known of and have heard of several instances where someone got to 20 years of service but didn't have 20 'good' years and didn't get retirement, Gatordev also had an example of an E-6 in the same situation that didn't get a waiver to get to 20. Someone on the board even mentioned long ago a buddy who had only 17 'good' years at 20 and enlisted in the National Guard to get to 20.

I can't cite a reg or a rule spelling that out but if you or the retirement counselor at BUPERS can't find one I wouldn't trust that interpretation of the sanctuary rule.

 

[vxc961]

I can't cite a reg or a rule spelling that out but if you or the retirement counselor at BUPERS can't find one I wouldn't trust that interpretation of the sanctuary rule.

Flash, you're 100% right that you can't base your retirement on "but this guy said...". BUPERs quoted me 10 USC Section 12646, which I've pasted below. While I'm thankful I actually got somebody who seemed to know something, he wasn't interested in going over the finer details with me.

10 USC § 12646 - Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service

(a) If on the date prescribed for the discharge or transfer from an active status of a reserve commissioned officer he is entitled to be credited with at least 18, but less than 19, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
(2) the second anniversary of the date on which he would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.

 

[Flash]

Flash, you're 100% right that you can't base your retirement on "but this guy said...". BUPERs quoted me 10 USC Section 12646, which I've pasted below. While I'm thankful I actually got somebody who seemed to know something, he wasn't interested in going over the finer details with me.

10 USC § 12646 - Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service

(a) If on the date prescribed for the discharge or transfer from an active status of a reserve commissioned officer he is entitled to be credited with at least 18, but less than 19, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
(2) the second anniversary of the date on which he would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.

I think the key words are 'active status', meaning it only applies to folks on active duty as a reservist and not a drilling reservist who is not on active duty. I can ask around at my next drill weekend, my unit has plenty of reservists who have learned the ins and outs of the reserves after trying to get as much out of the reserves as the Navy has gotten out of them, but BUPERS' assertion is the first time I have seen sanctuary rule interpreted in that way. Gatordev may have more info since he is FTS and has really figured out how to scam things out of the Navy Reserve.

 

[vxc961]

Active status = Active Status List = SELRES + IRR....at least that's what "that guy" told me at BUPERS. Please ask around, or anybody else please chime in. I'd really like to have a firmer answer!

 

[Gatordev]

I personally haven't heard it interpreted the way you're saying, vxc. I can't remember the specific good years the E-6 had, but I'm pretty sure it was over 18. The front office ran it up as high as he could go (presumably to CNRFC) because this guy was an absolute wizard in the back of the aircraft and we didn't want to lose him. No go. I can't remember if they let him go to the VTU, though. So that may have been the work around that you're referring to.

The active-duty time > 18 years is another hot-topic right now. If you're approaching that milestone and still have a couple years of SELRES time, don't expect a waiver. My current CO has a story about a guy back in '04-ish who was MOBed in Iraq doing exciting helicopter things and got yanked back in a matter of days to deMOB him so he didn't get an active duty retirement. I think at the beginning and the end of the FYs, I get about 15 different emails all with whatever the current instructions are about not letting members go over 18 years.

Gatordev may have more info since he is FTS and has really figured out how to scam things out of the Navy Reserve.

My expertise in scamming involves either a) finding you another way to get paid for something and b) how to get an aircraft for the weekend to go to an airshow. Sadly, that second part hasn't gotten much practice lately.

 

[Flash]

.....The active-duty time > 18 years is another hot-topic right now. If you're approaching that milestone and still have a couple years of SELRES time, don't expect a waiver. My current CO has a story about a guy back in '04-ish who was MOBed in Iraq doing exciting helicopter things and got yanked back in a matter of days to deMOB him so he didn't get an active duty retirement. I think at the beginning and the end of the FYs, I get about 15 different emails all with whatever the current instructions are about not letting members go over 18 years.

I know quite a few guys personally who are at 17 years and X months of active duty time and they can't get active orders of any kind, the Navy won't let them reach sanctuary. I even knew a guy from my old unit that was 10 days away from sanctuary and they pulled his orders and switched them so he wouldn't reach it. It was only this past weekend I heard of the first Navy reservist who actually made sanctuary. I don't know the circumstances but he is a CAPT and is working a 'special project', whatever the hell that means, but someone high up the food chain likes him and let him reach it.

My expertise in scamming involves either a) finding you another way to get paid for something and b) how to get an aircraft for the weekend to go to an airshow. Sadly, that second part hasn't gotten much practice lately.

FTS used to be a bit of a scam, that is what I was referring to.

 

[Gatordev]

FTS used to be a bit of a scam, that is what I was referring to.

You may have taken the FTS part of my post too seriously without the smileys and all.

I don't think of it as a scam, but as a more "attractive alternative." Although they are beating the good deals out of it one by one.

 

[Flash]

.....I don't think of it as a scam, but as a more "attractive alternative." Although they are beating the good deals out of it one by one.

It is all how you phrase it.....

 

[vxc961]

I called pets-911 today. The guy didn't know the statute, but said "18 is the magic number. If you get to 18 good years, we'll let you get 20 and retire".

For what it's worth, he didn't call it "sanctuary"--said that was to get active retirements (as discussed above)

I'd still like something a bit firmer, but I think pets saying that is a good indication.

 

[SoulGlo987]

vxc, "active status" does apply to reservists.

10 USC § 101 - Definitions
(d) Duty Status.— The following definitions relating to duty status apply in this title:
(1) The term “active duty” means full-time duty in the active military service of the United States. Such term includes full-time training duty, annual training duty, and attendance, while in the active military service, at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary of the military department concerned. Such term does not include full-time National Guard duty.
(2) The term “active duty for a period of more than 30 days” means active duty under a call or order that does not specify a period of 30 days or less.
(3) The term “active service” means service on active duty or full-time National Guard duty.
(4) The term “active status” means the status of a member of a reserve component who is not in the inactive Army National Guard or inactive Air National Guard, on an inactive status list, or in the Retired Reserve.

Active status = Active Status List = SELRES + IRR....at least that's what "that guy" told me at BUPERS. Please ask around, or anybody else please chime in. I'd really like to have a firmer answer!

 

[vxc961]

Nice! I was right there snooping around title 10, buts missed that completely--thanks!

 

[subreservist]

It gets really confusing, really quick when navigating the pers site and trying to decipher what applies to you.

I believe the "active status" they are referring to are reservists who are on active duty...i.e. they are continuously serving on active duty orders of some type and the sanctuary applies to them, if they are able to get to the 18th year. If they get in, they qualify for active duty retirement.

For SELRES & IRR, I think we fall to retention/continuation policy in effect at the time. As on O4, if you're able to get 20 qualifying years prior to 24 years of commissioned service, you get reserve retirement eligibility. Normally it's 20 ycs, but the current retention/cont policy extends it to 24 if approved (for certain designators-which includes URL warfare officers). I think they have been consistent with 24, but with the Afghanistan drawdown, manning numbers and needs could change. You make O5 and it doesn't matter, because you get plenty of time to stay in, if you want to stay that long.

So basically, as it stands now, the way I read it anyway...you can have a break in service up to 4 years...as long as you can get 20 qualifying years within the 24 commissioned years. Breaks longer than that mean you have to get creative, like the enlisting option. I think the guy in my unit had a break longer than 4 years. For the person that gave the enlisted example, I couldn't find much about how there stuff works at all; I found their HYT table, but I would think that break in service would impact them, also. Not sure what there work around could be...the site says they can apply for a waiver, but if it's turned down, then my guess is there aren't any other military options left (as they would most likely exceed age limits on all officer programs). They could probably get a federal/government/post office job and roll their years of service that way toward retirement.