Place your bets!

[nittany03]

Chaplains! Fuck those guys! ? OK, I cheated, it’s in the story, but I do wonder whether we’d be better off as an organization if we put the resources we spend on Chaplains into qualified mental health pros instead of having a church and services on every base. Put one on the larger ships and 1 or 2 in each region, but each O6 command doesn’t need a spiritual adviser.

Social workers don't have absolute confidentiality. Granted, what I've seen out of the Chaplain Corps is hit or miss from "outstanding human being and officer" to "meh." Perhaps we need some of each.

Not everyone is a blasphemous heathen like you.

 

[picklesuit]

I think mental health services for all family members would be a much more useful program to fund than religious services.

we need to get out of the business of funding church services and get into the business of taking care of our military members and families.
Finding quality mental health resources for spouses and children is damn near impossible. Wait times for psychiatrists and psychologists range into months, even with a wife who was hospitalized with a suicide attempt.

 

[Brett327]

Social workers don't have absolute confidentiality. Granted, what I've seen out of the Chaplain Corps is hit or miss from "outstanding human being and officer" to "meh." Perhaps we need some of each.

Not everyone is a blasphemous heathen like you.

Chaplains do not have absolute confidentiality - not sure where you're going with that. If people want a preacher, there's no shortage of them outside the front gate. The military can provide clergy in situations where that isn't an option. See also the CONUS commissary system.

 

[IKE]

Seeing as how the military has a documented higher rate of atheists/agnostics/undecideds than the general U.S. population, it is rather silly to spend so much money on the Chaplain Corp. It's also incredibly outdated, for both cultural and technological reasons. I think we'd be better off paying a civilian psychologist to board all flat tops for deployment, like the civilian Fun Boss.

 

[picklesuit]

Seeing as how the military has a documented higher rate of atheists/agnostics/undecideds than the general U.S. population, it is rather silly to spend so much money on the Chaplain Corp. It's also incredibly outdated, for both cultural and technological reasons. I think we'd be better off paying a civilian psychologist to board all flat tops for deployment, like the civilian Fun Boss.

We had a psych-O on our ship, she was Navy. Always busy...

 

[nittany03]

Chaplains do not have absolute confidentiality - not sure where you're going with that.

I was under the impression that that was the case due to clergy-penitent privilege; is there an instruction or case law that states otherwise? Point is, while I totally agree that we do need to reform and plus-up our mental health resources, I've always thought of that chaplain confidentiality as a necessary outlet for a kid to be able to just have a place to dump what's on their mind and get guidance as to where to go next. I've certainly heard chaplains mention it as a resource.

WRT the increased number of atheists/agnostics in uniform, OK, sure, but we've also got just the opposite. Plenty of devout believers of several faiths in uniform, and Chaps is supposed to be looking out for everyone of all faiths, even the atheists. There was even a movement recently to commission secular humanist Chaplains, as I recall.

Edit over morning coffee: Found it. The instruction is SECNAVINST 1730.9A's definition of privileged and confidential communication.

1. Privileged Communication. Privileged communication is a legal term. Pursuant to reference (b) [Manual for Courts-Martial, Military Rule of Evidence 503], a counselee has a privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent another from disclosing a confidential communication made by the person to a Chaplain, contracted clergy, RP, or Chaplain Assistant, if such communication is made either as a formal act of religion or as a matter of conscience. A Chaplain, contracted clergy, RP, or Chaplain Assistant who received the communication may claim the privilege on behalf of the counselee. The authority of the Chaplain, contracted clergy, RP, or Chaplain Assistant to do so is presumed in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

2. Confidential Communication. Pursuant to reference (b), a communication made either as a formal act of religion or as a matter of conscience is confidential if made to a Chaplain or contracted clergy, or to a Chaplain Assistant or a RP, in his or her official capacity, and is not intended to be disclosed to third persons, excluding those to whom disclosure is necessary for the furtherance of the purpose of the communication pursuant to this instruction.

So if you communicate to Chaps about a "matter of conscience" in his/her official capacity, it is confidential and legally privileged. Regardless of if you're a theist or not.

 

[Waveoff]

With all the money saved, we can respend it on developing NWU Type IVs with rank insignia you can actually see from a distance, and at an angle not directly in front of someone cough cough type 1s with the pockets of type 3s

 

[nittany03]

With all the money saved, we can respend it on developing NWU Type IVs with rank insignia you can actually see from a distance, and at an angle not directly in front of someone cough cough type 1s with the pockets of type 3s

And rank insignia placed square on the chests of our female Sailors . . . nice job, people.

 

[Jim123]

Getting rid of dependent BAH and just making BAH the same for everyone, single/married/whatever. Equal compensation for equal work (or paygrade-seniority).

I'm just gonna pull the pin on that one and let the grenade roll around a little...

 

[Brett327]

clergy-penitent privilege

This is the Chaplain's Kobayashi Maru scenario. Someone confesses a heinous crime, or is contemplating one, or is about to kill themselves. Every Chaplain that I've pressed on this issue has said there are ways around privilege in those situations. Could you imagine the shit show that would ensue if the Navy prosecuted a Chaplain for breach of privilege that prevented a 9 year old girl from being raped? So, by instruction - privilege. In practice - not necessarily.

 

[nittany03]

This is the Chaplain's Kobayashi Maru scenario. Someone confesses a heinous crime, or is contemplating one, or is about to kill themselves. Every Chaplain that I've pressed on this issue has said there are ways around privilege in those situations. Could you imagine the shit show that would ensue if the Navy prosecuted a Chaplain for breach of privilege that prevented a 9 year old girl from being raped? So, by instruction - privilege. In practice - not necessarily.

That's a distinction without a difference, though. Just because a Chaplain has ways to report egregious corner cases doesn't take away from everything outside of them. What matters is that they can credibly tell Sailors that they are a confidential resource to vent and get help that isn't perceived in the Sailor's mind as ending up on their eval, or on their SF86 (yes, I know that's changed), or in their medical record. Sure, the Chaplain is probably ultimately going to direct them to other resources, but maybe some people need the confidentiality to take that first step. Or to vent.

But the perception of confidentiality is key, especially when someone's stuck on the boat for months on end, and the mess-deck gossip channels are going full-bore. Is there a legal basis for doing that with social workers? Honest question, because I don't know, but I'm doubtful.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Chaplains! Fuck those guys! ? OK, I cheated, it’s in the story, but I do wonder whether we’d be better off as an organization if we put the resources we spend on Chaplains into qualified mental health pros instead of having a church and services on every base. Put one on the larger ships and 1 or 2 in each region, but each O6 command doesn’t need a spiritual adviser.

Big Navy is already doing this with BUMED/DHA alignment with healthcare. Military medicine focuses on the military side of things while civilian providers handle families/shore side.

Also, why not stop at Chaplains? Let's look at the rest of the Staff Corps to include JAGs, Supply Corps, CEC, etc. I get they have important-ish roles but could some of their work be outsourced at a lower cost?

 

[nittany03]

Also, why not stop at Chaplains? Let's look at the rest of the Staff Corps to include JAGs, Supply Corps, CEC, etc. I get they have important-ish roles but could some of their work be outsourced at a lower cost?

At some point, the question becomes what legally has to be done by uniformed personnel. That's already an issue with contract ISR and some other areas I've seen.

 

[Brett327]

That's a distinction without a difference, though. Just because a Chaplain has ways to report egregious corner cases doesn't take away from everything outside of them. What matters is that they can credibly tell Sailors that they are a confidential resource to vent and get help that isn't perceived in the Sailor's mind as ending up on their eval, or on their SF86 (yes, I know that's changed), or in their medical record. Sure, the Chaplain is probably ultimately going to direct them to other resources, but maybe some people need the confidentiality to take that first step. Or to vent.

But the perception of confidentiality is key, especially when someone's stuck on the boat for months on end, and the mess-deck gossip channels are going full-bore. Is there a legal basis for doing that with social workers? Honest question, because I don't know, but I'm doubtful.

I think we're talking about two different aspects of privilege - one is beneficial, the other is a barrier to doing the right thing when people's safety is at stake. The point being, it's not absolute in practice, and that's a good thing. Sailors want to be able to vent someone in confidence. Those same Sailors would want and expect an officer and moral authority to act and do what's right during those rare times when it might prevent tragedy.

 

[Brett327]

Also, why not stop at Chaplains? Let's look at the rest of the Staff Corps to include JAGs, Supply Corps, CEC, etc. I get they have important-ish roles but could some of their work be outsourced at a lower cost?

JAGs and Supply folks - I don't think you're ever going to get away from that. CEC, I could buy. These days, KBR (or whatever incarnation of Blackwater exists) can go set up a FOB on a remote Pacific island. I'm not convinced that contractors are inherently less expensive. You have to look at the total picture in what they do for the organization. At NAWDC, we have contract maintenance, which has its own set of challenges, but none of those guys are able to do all the various things we ask Sailors to do, like stand watch, or manage the PFA program, etc.