OCS type training for all Naval Officers?

[HH-60H]

You are not the first person to make that suggestion, or something similar to it. Part of the answer to that is that it is part of the training required to have command of a ship or squadron. However, I am not advocating the Navy way or Marine way or whatever, I am just stating the way I see the current system(s) of Naval leadership.

 

[highlyrandom]

"Playing devils advocate, what would be the purpose of having hundreds of JOs who have no authority to make decisions? Why not just have those positions fill be enlisted personnel and save both the money training that many JOs and wages of them? Again devils advocate."

Hands down, legal responsibility. One of the things that frees up senior enlisted people to be great combat leaders is the fact that the JOs take on that extra mental burden of being the final authority. Initially you'll argue that we don't even need the officers, but can you imagine being the liason to the troops as a Gunny and also bearing full administrative responsibility as to paperwork, training, and official counseling?

Sure, the Chief can do it on his own. But it makes his life easier if he can be a "good cop" to the JO's "bad cop" or vice versa. Arguments should be directed at the last 300 years of history, or at any work by Kipling re: British troops in India. Which is not to say that all JOs are essential, merely that the concept of having an officer and a senior enlisted running the show together is a sound one.

 

[HH-60H]

That's a good point. One of the hallmarks of a professional military, such as ours, is a senior enlisted structure that works between the officer corps and junior enlisted.

 

[highlyrandom]

Man, sorry to keep looking up Heinlein quotes, but this one from Starship Troopers again pretty much says it all:

"There never has been an outfit in which officers and men were more dependent on each other than they are in the M.I. [Marines, etc.], and sergeants are the glue that holds us together. Never forget it."

and

"What is the only factor that can save you when the load is too heavy? Anyone?"
"Your leading sergeant, sir."
"Obviously. He's probably older than you are, more drops under his belt, and he certainly knows his team better than you do. Since he isn't carrying that dreadful, numbing load of top command, he may be thinking more clearly than you are. Ask his advice."

Any historical attempt to eliminate either senior enlisted or officers in the functioning of a military force has usually been shown to be a bad idea, for many of the reasons above.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Why do I want to learn to be a SWO and an aviator?

Why does this theme keep coming up? Where in this thread did I say I wanted all officers to be SWO's? I've asked in two separate posts for some input on what is that makes a SWO? What is it that you think we do that defines us as SWO's. I'm guessing that the reason I've yet to get a response is because I'm asking a room full of aviators that only think they know what a SWO does. There are a couple of you on here that have some real experience with my community. The others....well, a midshipman cruise doesn't cut it. If you think you know, then speak up and let's hear it. It's an important piece to this puzzle we are discussing.

 

[Brett327]

:sleep_125

Brett

 

[VarmintShooter]

Primarily focus of my interest is based on overall cost.

Cheif, concur that it might cost less and produce similar results. Not sure how it would affect other factors (recruiting, for instance), but from a cost standpoint I suspect that you are correct.

Additionally, I am probably in the minority in that I feel all Naval Officers, regardless of community, should attend a program of instruction that is centered upon naval warfare. My initial thought is that this school would resemble a lot of what SWOS Division Officer Course used to be ...

... Where in this thread did I say I wanted all officers to be SWO's?

Steve ... perhaps I misunderstood what they did up at SWOS ... I thought they learned SWO stuff? I don't know what SWO's do, just what surface enlisted guys do. Nothing wrong with that lifestyle, but so far I don't see its relevance to aviation.

Also, how do you define "naval warfare?" I just assumed you meant SWO stuff (being that you are a SWO).


Think I'm going back to lurking now, I'm staying pretty busy learning things that I'll be tested on.

 

[The Chief]

Cheif, concur that it might cost less and produce similar results. Not sure how it would affect other factors (recruiting, for instance), but from a cost standpoint I suspect that you are correct.

Absolutely. A hit on recruitment would be a cost and should be factored into the decision.

Furtherance of the idea expressed by Steve to "step back and look at the big picture", this is not a proposal, simply a natural extension of the discussion.

I was surprised and dismayed that SWO school had been eliminated, but have to admit a lot more dismayed than surprised.

I have some knowledge of NROTC and of the significant problems of that program. I have long heard that USNA grads bring nothing to the table over and above other sources in the long run, e.g. retention as a group, screening for command and etc. Above my pay grade to voice, but seem to be the think/speak herein.

I also know that Annapolis has a wonderful campus for a true Naval Academy of the 21st Century, where all Naval Officers are trained in an expanded and enhanced proven OCS model. 6 months, 1 year, what ever, the yard is large enough to support. A new SWO school would also easily fit, with room to spare.

Result: Lower cost, better trained force, less friction within the total force.

Not saying the Marine Corps Officer is better than the Naval Officers. But, not saying they are not either. Above my pay grade.

Nor do I want to mimic the MC concept of Every Marine is a Rifleman by training Aviators as SWOs. But I do now that, at least in the past, the plum job to which ALL Naval Aviators aspire is the SWO job - the CV driver. :icon_smil


_________________________
Well, off to the Goat Locker.

 

[The Chief]

Chief can ... but it makes his life easier if he can be a "good cop" ....

Good cop? GOOD COP? What did I ever say to deserve that?

But agree, But never ever diminish the value of even the greenest of green Ensigns. Even the newly minted bring something to the table by virtue of their position, status, and demeanor no senior PO/CPO ever could.

Lt Barnum earned the Congressional Medal of Honor, saved most of his platoon, his first week in combat.

 

[USN99]

Some additional shots

- I had aviation command. I still think that all flyers need to have a deep and abiding appreciation, respect, and some knowledge of surface warfare.
--Getting it is possible and affordable.
--Making all USNA grads spend 9 months to a year before attending flight school aboard a ship was a bad solution. So, therefore, USNA/NROTC mid cruises will have to cut it, Mr. Wilkins. :icon_rage
- All the academies are sacrosanct and may not be criticized except in informal internet discussion forums. When working Navy budgets, they get pretty much lenient treatment. However, what can be introduced is a logic train which asserts if the USNA formula is so perfect and worth about a quarter million per grad in cost, then there are parts of that same formula which can be affordably implemented in NROTC.
-- How about these parts to emulate:
--- Bigger stipend for 48 months; only interrupted when on active duty for summer training.
--- Room & Board plus tuition, fees, and books for 4 years.
--- Four mid cruises beginning after the NROTC freshman year and finishing after the 8th academic semester. The composition could pretty much correspond to the USNA summer training regimen- from Plebe summer to 1/c cruise. This could be formulated and avoid having to build another Bancroft/King Hall complex.
--- Obligated service, pretty close to the same as for USNA grads.
-- Interesting metrics to look for:
--- 10,000 applications for NROTC scholarships.
--- 4,000 make the first cut.
--- 900-1000 get the scholarships.
- Closing comments.
-- I hold Officers of Marines in high regard, all of them.
-- I hold Navy CPOs in high regard as well. Making them Surface ship DivOs is a bad idea. (Not for this thread. Maybe another thread.)

 

[The Chief]

- ... Making them (CPO's) Surface ship DivOs is a bad idea. (Not for this thread. Maybe another thread.)

Very bad idea indeed, let me count the ways.

Thread Jack!

The term "Listen to the Chief" does not equal "Do what the Chief said"

Ask, listen, evaluate and make your decision.

Return thread.

 

[USN99]

Wisdom

The term "Listen to the Chief" does not equal "Do what the Chief said"

Ask, listen, evaluate and make your decision.

Wisdom, High Wisdom. This is stratospheric wisdom that should be a part of every officers upbringing.

BZ.