OCS Changes

[airgreg]

This thread is pretty amusing. I think this is a great example of what happens throughout the Navy (if you don't believe me, ask anyone who graduated from any major Navy school or training curriculum). The "old school" guys (in this case that apparently includes anyone who graduated more than a month ago) will ALWAYS complain about how easy the "new guys" have it. That goes for the Academy, OCS, Primary Flight School, NNPS, Aircrew school, wherever. It isn't just particular to the Navy. As far as I know, the Air Force and Army are the same way.
Having said that, I must say that from what I've seen (which I'll admit isn't as much as some of you Salty Dogs out there) I have to agree with MSkinsATC. Only I'll go further. I would say that if you took an average recent OCS grad (middle third of his class) and put him side by side with an average NROTC and Academy grad, you will find that the OCS guy is in better physical shape, has better military bearing, and looks sharper than his counterparts. Even with all the changes.
However, you will probably also find that the OCS grad has very little in the way of true leadership skills or knowledge about how the "real" Navy actually works. When dealing with his subordinates, he will either jump to his feet every time anyone higher than an E-5 walks into the room, or he will try to bully and yell his way into the hearts of the enlisted men. Having talked to some of the people responsible for the changes to OCS, that is what they are trying to remedy. OCS was doing a fantastic job turning great Marines. The graduates were tough, sharp, and perfect followers. Unfortunately, they lacked a lot of the leadership skills required of good officers. Don't get me wrong, there were still fine officers that came out of OCS, but there was definite room for improvement. The thought process was that the old way of doing things was getting rid of far more "good" officers than the "bad" officers being let through by the new system.
I'm not sure if the changes they are making are the right ones, but I do think that somehow, the Navy will survive. As far as the DI's go, I'm not sure if some of them would be satisfied unless they could outright kill candidates they don't like.

Good post, agree with you for the most part.
However, there is still a certain percentage of candidates that have no business being anywhere near things or people that go BOOM. I'm not being super-critical, I'm referring to those few people who crack or repeatedly can't even live up to the most basic standards whether it's PT, academics, inspections, drill, personal behavior, attention to detail, etc...
There are candidates getting commissioned who have the rest of their classmates and class team (Class O, DI, CPO) standing around shaking their heads, wondering what happened to the standards they were trying to live up to.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

Good post, agree with you for the most part.
However, there is still a certain percentage of candidates that have no business being anywhere near things or people that go BOOM.

Good lord, I hope I am never one of the people that go BOOM.

 

[Sly1978]

Good post, agree with you for the most part.
However, there is still a certain percentage of candidates that have no business being anywhere near things or people that go BOOM....I'm referring to those few people who crack or repeatedly can't even live up to the most basic standards whether it's PT, academics, inspections, drill, personal behavior, attention to detail, etc...
There are candidates getting commissioned who have the rest of their classmates and class team (Class O, DI, CPO) standing around shaking their heads, wondering what happened to the standards they were trying to live up to.

You are right. I would be amiss if I didn't say that I saw some people graduate from OCS who shouldn't be dog catchers, let alone Naval Officers. However, I think you find those people coming from all the sources of commissioning, not just OCS. I may be wrong, but I think there are enough safeguards in the fleet to effectively get rid of those officers before they can do too much damage. Ideally, we wouldn't have to do that, but I don't think that there is any way around it.
DocT also makes a great point about TBS. That's exactly why the Marine Corps has it. Unfortunately for the Navy, it wouldn't be practical. There are too many officer designators whose missions are too separate to try a "one-size-fits-all" officers' basic school. Some have suggested that every naval officer should serve aboard a ship before going on to their ultimate billet. The Coast Guard just stopped doing that because they found it to be ineffective.

 

[wink]

The thought process was that the old way of doing things was getting rid of far more "good" officers than the "bad" officers being let through by the new system.

I prefer a similar philosophy as our justice system. Better to let a guilty man go free then wrongfully convict an innocent man. If a few individuals that otherwise would have been good officers can't hack a truely challenging OCS and get sh!t canned with the dirt bags, then so be it. The stakes are just too high. As said above, things go boom in the Navy.

Old salts may always think it was tougher for them then the boots that follow them. But it is certainly demonstrably so that the AOCS I attended in 1979 had far more physical and stressful events then today's OCS. Just look at the training plans back then. I am also willing to admit that AOCS in the 60s thru mid 70s was tougher then when I went through. If there is any truth to the opinion that OCS grads lack leadership skills then add to that portion of their training. You can't possibly be saying that a truely stressful and physically challenging OCS is incompatable with leadership training. Kick'em in the nuts and lead them to sick bay!

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I went in early 1983.

That would put me in...uh....the 3rd grade.

Good times.

 

[Sly1978]

But it is certainly demonstrably so that the AOCS I attended in 1979 had far more physical and stressful events then today's OCS....Kick'em in the nuts and lead them to sick bay!

Spoken like a true salty dog. I do admire what you went through back in '79 (I was in diapers, by the way). I have seen the training regimens that were used in the old AOCS and they were much more physically demanding. However, for better or for worse, we're not dealing with the same Navy or even the same world that we were back then. The Navy can no longer afford to treat its commissioning programs like glorified football tryouts. The wars we're fighting now do still involve a lot of "things going boom", but they involve a lot more information management and world perception. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it any less true. Naval officers need to be thinkers as well as jocks. My point to all this is that while the training at OCS (and the other commissioning sources) may be less physically demanding and occasionally may allow a few unqualified candidates through, you can't tell me that EVERY individual that put on bars with you was 100% qualified to do so, even with all the "nut kicking". We need to train the best officers to fight today's wars. I had the pleasure of meeting a member of the first graduating class from AOCS. The man was a retired admiral and Blue Angel. He spoke to me about this very thing. What he said, is that even his class took crap from the salties who didn't think that anybody less than academy grads should fly airplanes. What he said all the arguments really boil down to is "NO FAIR! We had to go through that crap, why don't they?"

 

[wink]

Spoken like a true salty dog. I do admire what you went through back in '79 (I was in diapers, by the way). I have seen the training regimens that were used in the old AOCS and they were much more physically demanding. However, for better or for worse, we're not dealing with the same Navy or even the same world that we were back then. The Navy can no longer afford to treat its commissioning programs like glorified football tryouts. The wars we're fighting now do still involve a lot of "things going boom", but they involve a lot more information management and world perception. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it any less true. Naval officers need to be thinkers as well as jocks. My point to all this is that while the training at OCS (and the other commissioning sources) may be less physically demanding and occasionally may allow a few unqualified candidates through, you can't tell me that EVERY individual that put on bars with you was 100% qualified to do so, even with all the "nut kicking". We need to train the best officers to fight today's wars. I had the pleasure of meeting a member of the first graduating class from AOCS. The man was a retired admiral and Blue Angel. He spoke to me about this very thing. What he said, is that even his class took crap from the salties who didn't think that anybody less than academy grads should fly airplanes. What he said all the arguments really boil down to is "NO FAIR! We had to go through that crap, why don't they?"

If it isn't the same Navy as I joined then it is not because of some unseen hand. The Navy has changed itself and can change it back or in any other way it desires. And while all you say about modern warfare may be true I repeat, the old ways of training are simply not inconsistent with imparting the skill set necessary to fight new wars. By the way. All the excess stress and physical stuff of the old AOCS days was not to produce nuckle dragging officers. Those were tools that developed skills, discipline and copeing mechanisms that are just are needed today as 25 years ago. But alas, I fear they may not be taught so well today.

 

[Sly1978]

I'm not saying that I think that all the new changes to OCS are the best thing to do. I'm just trying to explain the rationale behind them. As for the Navy being able to change itself back to the "old ways", I have one question for you: How many women were in your AOCS class in 1979? The Navy has changed and it is not going back to what it was. There are other stresses out there besides running around with a rifle over your head. I still think that the ones who do slip through the cracks at OCS will be spotted and dealt with in the fleet. Again, it would be great if we could spot them all before they get their commissions, but there is no way. It doesn't matter how much we let the DIs beat them into submission. Like I said before, can you honestly say that everyone who graduated from your OCS class was 100% qualified to wear the uniform?

 

[wink]

How many women were in your AOCS class in 1979?

Three. I was in one of the first three or four classes with women. The pilot candidate was great. She deserved to be there. She got injured and they sent her home for rehab. Don't know if she came back. Hope she did. The other two were Air Intel types. One was a dirt ball the other very good. The dirt ball couldn't take anything and was even marginal in academics. She rolled a couple times and she eventually graduated. Always wondered what kind of officer she became.

There are other stresses out there besides running around with a rifle over your head.

There are. For the life of me I can't think of very darn many that are currently exploited at OCS for training benefit. Many fraternity pledges go through more then current OCS candidates.

Like I said before, can you honestly say that everyone who graduated from your OCS class was 100% qualified to wear the uniform?

No I can't. I later found out that one guy in my class went out to his car and smoked some dope once. He went on to fly P-3s. But I am pretty certain that the greater degree of stress and physical activity caused those less dedicated or doubtful of their own commitment to DOR or not even report. In those days every AOCS selectee was sent to Pcola for a three day tour to expose them to the perils of AOCS. Running the O course and X-country course, swimming, eating in the galley with candidates, observing motivational PT being dispensed and seeing the "colorful" personal brief by the Chief DI usually resulted in about a 20% drop from the program before even reporting to AOCS. They went back to their recruiters and said "no thanks".

 

[FlyingBeagle]

Many fraternity pledges go through more then current OCS candidates.
[/I]

Haha, I hope OCS doesn't involve such levels of homo-eroticism

 

[VetteMuscle427]

They, being the staff in general, constantly preach now that with the new PT, they have reduced the number of injuries by 80% yet improved the overall physical shape of the candidates coming out of OCS.

Out of curiosity, what % of candidates rolled for injury back in '79?

 

[Sly1978]

Many fraternity pledges go through more then current OCS candidates.

That pretty much sums up why the changes are being made. Is OCS there to train the next generation of J.O.s, or to haze and humiliate them? As aviators it really doesn't do too much harm to come out of OCS scared of Chiefs and Marines in general. Unfortunately, the SWO's have to go straight to the fleet with no buffer school. The mission of OCS is switching from one of attrition to one of training leaders ready to go immediately into their billets.

These are just a few of my thoughts, a lowly Ensign

That's the attitude OCS is trying to alleviate. Even the "lowly Ensign" outranks more than 75% of the military and needs to be prepared to lead them. Marine Corps boot camp is physically demanding and puts out the best followers in the world. That's why they have the USMC Coporal's School at MCAS Beaufort to teach them how to lead when it comes time for that. The Navy cannot have an officer corps with the same mentality of a Marine PFC. The Navy needs leaders coming out of OCS. It is hoped that the new programs will help to emphasize leadership and thinking.

Having said that, I will admit that I saw some pretty pathetic things while I was there. I saw candidates who DOR'd and they were not ALLOWED to drop. Even if they didn't change their mind they were FORCED back into class so they could become little poison pills for everyone else. That sort of thing needs to change, but beating up or hazing the ones who want to make it through is not the answer.

 

[wink]

Out of curiosity, what % of candidates rolled for injury back in '79?

My class, I think I remember one rolled for injury, the above mentioned woman, and another that managed to stay with the class as walking wounded but should have been rolled.

 

[wink]

That pretty much sums up why the changes are being made. Is OCS there to train the next generation of J.O.s, or to haze and humiliate them?

Hazing builds group identity, pride and mutual respect for the group. I have seen studies that indicate that. Using humiliation is brutal but affective when time is short. OCS is already too short. No time to analyze the unique motivational buttons to push on every individual

The Navy cannot have an officer corps with the same mentality of a Marine PFC. The Navy needs leaders coming out of OCS.

The techniques and program used by the Marines at Navy OCS are similar, or used to be anyway, to the same used at Quantico to build USMC leaders. It isn't boot camp. DIs reporting for OCS, Navy or Marine, are trained differently. Navy officer candidates are not trained to be PFCs just because Marine DIs make them run an O-course for time or use motivational PT or teach them the manual of arms. And I don't think that having Marine DIs teach military indoc and basic leadership by example makes a new Ensign afraid of DIs or CPOs. Nearly all DIs have more than enough leadership skills to prove able mentors to officer candidates. I wanted to be more like my DI then my LT class officer. In terms of military bearing, Sgt Blythe, USMC, is still the yard stick by which I measure myself.

 

[KBayDog]

Having been through both Marine recruit training and OCS, I would like to dispell a few myths I see on this forum. Recruit training and OCS have nearly NOTHING in common - other than squad bay living and drill instructors.

Recruit training is not designed to make the best "followers" in the world. It is designed to make a basically-trained Marine. (Hence, boot camp is generally not all that physically demanding. It is a carefully controlled program that takes an average, out-of-shape civilian and trains him up to basic Marine fitness standards.) Yes, through drill, it instills the basics of immediate obedience to orders - there is no disputing that. However, it also fosters the spirit of leadership, esprit de corps, etc. Recruits are taught accountability - that no matter what the situation, even if there are only two PFCs present, SOMEONE is always in charge. The SNCO Academies have the Corporals' Course on almost every major Marine base - but to say that a Marine is not a leader simply because he is not a corporal is wrong. For example, "Squad Leader" may be a sergeant's billet, but there are a butt-ton of lance corporals who fill that billet at any given time. They had better be leaders!

OCS is not designed to train anybody. OCS is nothing more than an evaluation process. The DIs are pretty much hands-off (can you imagine a recruit drilling a platoon?!?!) and simply facilitate chaos, in order to see how a candidate handles different situations. OCS PT is not "training;" it is an extremely physically-demanding evaluation process. Simply put, OCS does not a training environment! It is a prac-app test.

(Personally, my feeling is that boot camp makes Marines. OCS does not. TBS - a true training environment - is where the basic lieutenant learns how to be a Marine.)