OCS Changes

[OVERCOME]

New program, old program..... "back in the day program"....... it doesn't matter to me. I'm not joining because it's easier now than it was back then and those 12 weeks of OCS WILL NOT DEFINE ME. And upon graduation, whether or not I graduate 1st or last in my class, I will be neither a great officer nor a bad officer. It will take many trials, tribulations, mistakes, and successes far beyond OCS that will determine so. Being a good officer, Marine Corps, Navy, Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, takes a lifetime commitment. ………. Ex. Take a look at the Marine OCS (OCC 186)videos here on airwarriors. Scuttlebutt has it that a couple of those candidates who graduated from a very tough Marine OCS are now out of the Corps due to DUI’s. Just because one OCS is tougher than another doesn’t mean that a person will be a better or smarter officer than the other. Each has its good and bad apples.

 

[airgreg]

The point of this rant is that I believe that OCS will produce the same amount of good officers and bad officers that it always has. I hope someday we relatively recent graduates will have the opportunity to prove to any skeptics that we can be good officers.

I agree with you that OCS will always produce good officers. However, I firmly believe that this Zero Attrition business allows more dirtbags through.

In perhaps the greatest injustice, it also leaves newly minted Ensigns standing around after their commissioning ceremony wondering "How the hell did they let that guy/girl become an Naval Officer?" The dilution of standards is not the best way for young officers to begin careers in which they will hold themselves and others accountable to very high standards.

If you didn't have that feeling at your commissioning ceremony, then you are lucky. In talking to my OCS classmates and to some of the drill instructors and class CPO's, I know I am not alone.

New program, old program..... "back in the day program"....... it doesn't matter to me. I'm not joining because it's easier now than it was back then and those 12 weeks of OCS WILL NOT DEFINE ME. And upon graduation, whether or not I graduate 1st or last in my class, I will be neither a great officer nor a bad officer. It will take many trials, tribulations, mistakes, and successes far beyond OCS that will determine so. Being a good officer, Marine Corps, Navy, Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, takes a lifetime commitment. ………. Ex. Take a look at the Marine OCS (OCC 186)videos here on airwarriors. Scuttlebutt has it that a couple of those candidates who graduated from a very tough Marine OCS are now out of the Corps due to DUI’s. Just because one OCS is tougher than another doesn’t mean that a person will be a better or smarter officer than the other. Each has its good and bad apples.

OCS will not define anyone. However, the people you are commissioned with will define the Navy in the years to come. And if some of them are fatasses, or physically inept, or CRY during stressful evolutions, or routinely jump on the lame train (van that follows the group runs), or are repeatedly unable to master simple concepts, you will question whether that commissioning process is doing its job.

I completely agree that each OCS program will have good apples and bad apples. However, how would you propose to reduce the number of bad apples? If you have a better way than to make OCS more rigorous, I'm all ears.

Just want to clarify before anyone jumps on me and takes my comments out of context: I am VERY proud of being a Naval Officer and would not trade it for anything. My comments above do not detract from that. I just feel that we could be doing somethings better.)

 

[NavyLonghorn]

Haha. The lame train. I havent heard that.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

In perhaps the greatest injustice, it also leaves newly minted Ensigns standing around after their commissioning ceremony wondering "How the hell did they let that guy/girl become an Naval Officer?" The dilution of standards is not the best way for young officers to begin careers in which they will hold themselves and others accountable to very high standards.

If you didn't have that feeling at your commissioning ceremony, then you are lucky. In talking to my OCS classmates and to some of the drill instructors and class CPO's, I know I am not alone.

Yep. That's pretty much how I felt coming out of ROTC. Everyone says it's what you make of it, so I made the most of it and made good friends, but looking back on it, it's a pretty ridiculous program. My highschool held me to higher standards in every regard than did ROTC. If we are going to hand out comissions on a silver platter, why bother wasting the money on "training"? I wish I could better express my feelings on this, but it's pointless.
OCS guys, if you're feeling down about your program, I feel for you, but just remember that you haven't the hit the rock bottom of training like ROTC has.
P.S. Maybe this was just my unit, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[HAL Pilot]

AOCS 16-83. We started with 70 and commissioned 23. Which was better than 13-83 - they started with 70 and commissioned 13. Their DI had a goal of only commissioning as many as the class number. He said it kept things balanced that way.

 

[NavyLonghorn]

Uphill, both ways, barefoot, in three feet of snow.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Uphill, both ways, barefoot, in three feet of snow.

Yup, and it made men out of us. Hell, it made men out of the women too!

 

[wink]

Yup, and it made men out of us. Hell, it made men out of the women too!

Unfortunately, most looked the part!!

 

[PropStop]

When i went through OCS, just a scant four years ago, you had to put forth a real effort to get booted. I had guys roll into my class with FOUR CONSECUTIVE RLP failures! I absolutely hated one of the guys, he was not at all locked on. He caused us pain (as did my complete inability to march and utter incompetence at drill) due to his sloppy attitude. However, he's one of the best pilots i've met and a damn good officer. yeah, he's not all spit and polish, but he gets the job done and he does it well.

Point is, OCS helps shape a person into becoming a good officer, but that clay cannot be molded if the raw materials aren't quality to begin with. There were also a few guys in my class who could bust out the PT, slime their way through the tests (much as I did), and get others to carry them through the RLP's. yeah, they graduated without any failures or problems, but they still suck and many of them never made it through flight school.

OCS should be hard, and it is. I'd do SERE twice before i'd do OCS again. I think focusing more on the academics is good, but not at the expense of drill and other team building activities. There is good stuff to learn in those OCS classes, stuff that is directly related to what you will do as a JO. I sure wish i'd paid more attention to the Legal and Navy Admin classes. The basic job of an officer is the same no matter what platform you're in.

 

[wink]

I'd do SERE twice before i'd do OCS again.

You are sh!tting me, right? Maybe we should be talking about how much easier SERE has gotten ( ok, maybe not, confidential training and all). I hope no one thinks it improper for me to share one thing about SERE. I heard grown men cry and beg at SERE. Never heard that at AOCS. Which program do you think those guys would rather do again?

 

[ip568]

OCS went downhill when they disestablished AOCS and didn't let the DIs give you "vigorous, close-up, personal attention" or "Marine Corps Vocabulary Expansion" anymore. I didn't know they abandoned the O-Course. With what was it replaced?

 

[dnweinreb]

OCS went downhill when they disestablished AOCS and didn't let the DIs give you "vigorous, close-up, personal attention" or "Marine Corps Vocabulary Expansion" anymore.

Speaking as someone who got LOTS of vigorous personal attention from my DI, I assure you that at least THAT part of OCS has not been watered down. Once I sounded off for the wrong DI at morning PT and I became his b*tch for the rest of the day.

Although our DI made an attempt to curb his flowery vocabulary (every other word was "daggone" I assume replacing something more colorful) others made it perfectly clear how they felt in no uncertain terms.

 

[cracker]

Update:

The new schedule has been moved to tentatively start in January. So, until then (whenever "then" actually turns out to be), OCS will proceed as it has.

 

[Jared_G]

I think this was the point I was trying to make.

Somebody mentioned picking up the warrior ethos. Hopefully, anybody thinking of joining the military would have a wee bit of warrior ethos. Even as a suppo wannabe, I do understand that in wanting to join the *military* that one day I might be in the position to kill or order others to kill.

I do like reading the discussions of the direction that OCS is heading, but a knee-jerk reaction with no argument falls short of anything meaningful.

I'm less concerned about asking my fellow sailors to kill as I am about asking my fellow sailors to die.

As for the direction OCS is headed, I was always under the impression that OCS was one long and difficult stress test. I thought I would be brought to my breaking point at OCS both physically and mentally. I wanted to reach my breaking point (I don't know what it is yet) and then to go far beyond it. I don't want to "play soldier" for thirteen weeks.

 

[MSkinsATC]

I just finished OCS about a month ago...we were just about the last class to graduate under the old rules 02-06. I agreed with everything they did, and wish at times they were harder on people. Certain individuals in my class belong no where near the Navy. I think that others have alluded to the fact that people who DO NOT belong are being dragged through and commissioned officers...this is the thing that has to stop. How can we be a professional organization with unprofessional people comming in every three weeks?? Anyway sorry to rant on about that.
As for ROTC, someone was talking about their ROTC unit, and I must say...the ROTC kids have gotta be the worst dressed, have the worst personal hygeine(Haircut, shaved), and have the worst bearing out of all the Ensigns classing up for API. I would have to agree that ROTC has it quite a bit easier. This is not saying that there are not great ROTC units out there, just saying what I see is really bad!!
And finally, soon all of OCS will move to Newport RI, god only knows why, but BRAC seems to think thats the best place to put it. All the Navy training schools will eventually transition up there.
Ohh yeah one last thing, I believe that the DI's are the best thing at OCS, they beat the chirfs, they beat the academics, and they supply all the stress, without that man/woman the calibur of officers we turn out today would be even worse.
These are just a few of my thoughts, a lowly Ensign