O4 List

[ltedge46]

The good thing about this is that the right guy has taken notice. If this was just getting a little traction from a couple of 1/2 stars, I could see it dying on the vine after a little bit of lip service. But, VADM Moran being THE N1 for the navy, and a guy that genuinely seems to care about the issue, definately has the position and ability to make substantive changes. I've worked for him on multiple occasions as a JO/DH/post DH and he is a man that can make things happen. Yes, it will take a culture shift and we likely wouldn't see any movement forward very quickly, but change like this takes time. The rock will never get up the hill if someone doesn't start rolling it. Hopefully with the VADM behind it, it will actually get a good start before the next guy takes over.

 

[ltedge46]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/25/sailors-leaving-navy-over-stress-on-social-issues-/

Now getting traction in the press as well.

 

[Recovering LSO]

@Spekkio There is an option available for you to prove your theory: you could put down the keyboard, pick up a pen and write something yourself.

In all seriousness, you seem like the kind of guy who spends a lot of time thinking about big things (not saying it's a bad thing). Why don't you put some money where your proverbial mouth is and start writing for a larger-than-AW-audience? I'll head off your anticipated counterargument by offering the "I'm just JO and Flags don't listen to us" is crap. Put some thought into a subject that compels you, be honest with your assessments, have peers and superiors outside your chain of command review it, and then fire it away to USNI or any other number of clearing houses.

With all respect to John, if you expect to change the Navy through AW, you might be waiting a while.

My larger hope for Guy's white paper is that it encourages more officers to put pen to paper IOT articulate cogent ideas to broader audiences.

I retract this suggestion if you are already doing so. I don't know your name and wouldn't recognize you as an already published/submitted contributor.

 

[ProwlerPilot]

One of the real issues here is communication both up and down the chain with respect to the current and future condition of the Navy. Two of the items that Guy addresses in the paper are compensation and optempo.

In reference to OPTEMPO, leadership does need to listen to its people and realize the toll that is being taken on individuals, families, etc with the way schedules are moved and extended today. I have been out of the Navy (active side) for almost 3 years, and I miss hitting 500 knots in the break. But every time I long for a 45 minute cycle and a full bag of gas on a VFR day, I talk to a friend who hasn't seen his wife or kid for 7 months and just got extended. Or is talking about workups as they watch the fly in from the deployment they just completed. This type of pace is not sustainable by anyone. Yes sailors belong on ships and ships belong at sea, but only within reason. It is even more hard to swallow when some squadrons don't deploy for 2.5 years, and others are away 15 of 20 months.

As for pay, this is a perspective issue that needs to be addressed by leadership as well. CDR Snodgrass touches on it in his writing, but the current officer corps is very well compensated, especially with non-taxable BAH, BAS, Sea Pay, Flight Pay, and free medical. The problem with slowing the increase of compensation is a perception of getting screwed. It is imperative to show the comparisons between the two. It is very easy to get wide eyed at your banker friend who is making $120,000 a year. WOW!! That's alot. Except he has to pay health insurance (usually around $300-$500 a month), contribute to his retirement, and pay taxes on 100% of that pay. Frankly that amount of money is comparable to an O-4 over 12 when you factor in the tax advantage and benefits. Most "senior" officers getting out are taking a pay cut. Now potential definitely exists to make money faster than in the military, but I would argue that pay is not the real issue for retention.

With the advent of big data and powerful analytics, the Navy needs to address many of these issues with facts and not feelings. The comments on spending for social issues (DADT / Sexual harrasment / suicide) IMO should be able to be explained with actual data. How much did the Navy spend on X? How much benefit did it produce? Where is the breaking point of diminishing returns? If $1 million saves 5 lives and $5 million saves 6, is the extra $4 million worth it? Perhaps a callous decision, but a fact in a fiscally constrained environment.

Just my $.02 from the outside looking back in. I do miss cats and traps and supporting troops on the ground... But I don't miss the schedule, time away, and not being able to plan my life beyond the 4pm flight schedule release....

 

[Spekkio]

@Spekkio There is an option available for you to prove your theory: you could put down the keyboard, pick up a pen and write something yourself.

In all seriousness, you seem like the kind of guy who spends a lot of time thinking about big things (not saying it's a bad thing). Why don't you put some money where your proverbial mouth is and start writing for a larger-than-AW-audience? I'll head off your anticipated counterargument by offering the "I'm just JO and Flags don't listen to us" is crap. Put some thought into a subject that compels you, be honest with your assessments, have peers and superiors outside your chain of command review it, and then fire it away to USNI or any other number of clearing houses.

I already did. I also spread the word to people I know in the sub force. I may be cynical about the outcome but a few minutes to write a thoughtful response couldn't hurt. I hope that people on this board follow suit, although the USNI post didn't have any contact information to submit formal feedback on the topic.

I will ask this: is there a plan to solicit feedback among JOs in sea rotations or do they expect everyone to read a USNI blog (that I know I wouldn't have ever heard of if I didn't visit AW.com) in their very limited spare time?

To me, those are indicative between lip service and someone who really is trying to solicit good feedback.

 

[Brett327]

Weird, I thought too much hand-holding from senior leadership was part of the problem.

 

[Spekkio]

As for pay, this is a perspective issue that needs to be addressed by leadership as well. CDR Snodgrass touches on it in his writing, but the current officer corps is very well compensated, especially with non-taxable BAH, BAS, Sea Pay, Flight Pay, and free medical. The problem with slowing the increase of compensation is a perception of getting screwed. It is imperative to show the comparisons between the two. It is very easy to get wide eyed at your banker friend who is making $120,000 a year. WOW!! That's alot. Except he has to pay health insurance (usually around $300-$500 a month), contribute to his retirement, and pay taxes on 100% of that pay. Frankly that amount of money is comparable to an O-4 over 12 when you factor in the tax advantage and benefits. Most "senior" officers getting out are taking a pay cut. Now potential definitely exists to make money faster than in the military, but I would argue that pay is not the real issue for retention.

I think that where this line of thought misses the mark somewhat is that, as people become older and more senior, it's not just about personal income but household income. Plus, over the course of a 20 year career, the inability to purchase and build equity in a home is a huge financial hit.

Personally, I know that my wife would be happier if she were able to build a career, but that's not feasible because I will have to be exceptionally lucky to live in a place for more than 3 years (and I won't know it until near the 3 year point). I'd also feel more comfortable with my wife and kids dealing with deployments and hectic schedules if they had roots in the area -- close friends who they've known for a long time. So while I would take a paycut to O-3 pay leaving the Navy, the fact that my wife can build a career would more than make up for it. And the cherries on top are that my kids won't have to find new friends every 3 years and I won't ever have to go underway on short notice or miss birthdays/holidays/growing up milestones.

Then there's the fact that enlisted servicemembers want to start families, too, and they don't make anywhere near O-3 to O-5 pay while doing it. So when a flag officer who's set with a 6-figure income for life gets in front of a crowd telling them that they are overpaid, then it's a huge slap in the face.

My family is well off financially while I'm active duty, but if I look into the future retiring as an O-5 (assuming I even get selected), I'm trying to figure out how to send my kids to college in the next 3 years and how to purchase my first home while competing with people substantially younger than me for jobs. Meanwhile my wife is also trying to finally start to build a long-term career in her upper 40s. Quite honestly, the prospect of that is very scary to me. AD pay isn't going to make me stay/leave, it's what happens to my family when, not if but when, the Navy spits me out.

 

[CommodoreMid]

…. 4pm flight schedule release....

You made a funny.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I will ask this: is there a plan to solicit feedback among JOs in sea rotations or do they expect everyone to read a USNI blog in their very limited spare time?

To me, those are indicative between lip service and someone who really is trying to solicit good feedback.

Message to Garcia dude.

Even if Guy didn't have the points of contact he has, I'm pretty sure he could have figured out how to get a white paper to his intended audience. As can you.

 

[robav8r]

I think that where this line of thought misses the mark somewhat is that, as people become older and more senior, it's not just about personal income but household income. Plus, over the course of a 20 year career, the inability to purchase and build equity in a home is a huge financial hit.

Personally, I know that my wife would be happier if she were able to build a career, but that's not feasible because I will have to be exceptionally lucky to live in a place for more than 3 years (and I won't know it until near the 3 year point). I'd also feel more comfortable with my wife and kids dealing with deployments and hectic schedules if they had roots in the area -- close friends who they've known for a long time. So while I would take a paycut to O-3 pay leaving the Navy, the fact that my wife can build a career would more than make up for it. And the cherries on top are that my kids won't have to find new friends every 3 years and I won't ever have to go underway on short notice or miss birthdays/holidays/growing up milestones.

Then there's the fact that enlisted servicemembers want to start families, too, and they don't make anywhere near O-3 to O-5 pay while doing it. So when a flag officer who's set with a 6-figure income for life gets in front of a crowd telling them that they are overpaid, then it's a huge slap in the face.

My family is well off financially while I'm active duty, but if I look into the future retiring as an O-5 (assuming I even get selected), I'm trying to figure out how to send my kids to college in the next 3 years and how to purchase my first home while competing with people substantially younger than me for jobs. Meanwhile my wife is also trying to finally start to build a long-term career in her upper 40s. Quite honestly, the prospect of that is very scary to me. AD pay isn't going to make me stay/leave, it's what happens to my family when, not if but when, the Navy spits me out.

And THIS, Spekkio, is why those of us at or near retirement age get so worked up everytime we read about, or hear from someone, that hasn't walked the walk. Serving in the military is hard and brings with it many challenges that most of the populace will never know. Serving until you are finally "spit out by the Navy" is, in my humble opinion, truly deserving of EVERYTHING we have been promised, regarless of what you, or some other financial/budget/business analyst opines about what those of us currently wearing the nation's cloth must sacrifice and/or give up.

Threadjack/Rant over

 

[azguy]

Plus, over the course of a 20 year career, the inability to purchase and build equity in a home is a huge financial hit.

Curious, of the senior guys out there, have any of you had success as a buy and hold landlord over the course of a career? This method seems to be an option to grow long term wealth by military members. Clearly, it can be a huge liability and headache...

 

[Spekkio]

Weird, I thought too much hand-holding from senior leadership was part of the problem.

Even if Guy didn't have the points of contact he has, I'm pretty sure he could have figured out how to get a white paper to his intended audience. As can you.

Jeez, it's the 21st century. Even grumpy old guys like Bill O'Reilly have figured out that if you want to solicit responses to something, you include a hyperlink to an email address. I'll also be sure to tell guys underway to log onto USNI blog to post their thoughts. Oh wait, they don't have access to unclass internet.

I can email the POTUS with two clicks but I go to CNP's site and it links me to BUPERS customer support.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Write a letter and drop in the mail buoy. And stop making excuses for why people won't listen to you or read what you submit. Or, better yet, use the fancy email link and send your thoughts directly to Bill O'Reilly.


USNI
U.S. Naval Institute
291 Wood Road
Annapolis, MD 21402

Navy Times
Gannett Government Media
6883 Commercial Dr.
Springfield, VA 22159-0500 USA

US Naval War College Review
Code 32, Naval War College
686 Cushing Road
Newport, RI 02841

MOAA201 N Washington St
Alexandria, VA 22314

American Society of Naval Engineers
1452 Duke Street
Alexandria, Virginia 22314

Naval Submarine League
P. O. Box 1146
Annandale, VA 22003-9146

The Tailhook Association
9696 Businesspark Ave.
San Diego, CA 92131-1643

Naval Helicopter Association
P.O. Box 180578
Coronado, CA 92178-0578

 

[whitesoxnation]

As for pay, this is a perspective issue that needs to be addressed by leadership as well. CDR Snodgrass touches on it in his writing, but the current officer corps is very well compensated, especially with non-taxable BAH, BAS, Sea Pay, Flight Pay, and free medical. The problem with slowing the increase of compensation is a perception of getting screwed. It is imperative to show the comparisons between the two. It is very easy to get wide eyed at your banker friend who is making $120,000 a year. WOW!! That's alot. Except he has to pay health insurance (usually around $300-$500 a month), contribute to his retirement, and pay taxes on 100% of that pay. Frankly that amount of money is comparable to an O-4 over 12 when you factor in the tax advantage and benefits. Most "senior" officers getting out are taking a pay cut. Now potential definitely exists to make money faster than in the military, but I would argue that pay is not the real issue for retention.

Ditto again for what Spekkio said. A brand new O-3 in a higher BAH region makes the equivalent of ~$100,000 gross. Sounds like a lot, then when you factor in issues like Spekkio brought up it isn't. If you do go for home equity, have to move somewhere else, and can't rent your place out, you're getting doubly fucked. Banker at $120k/year isn't a good comparison. It's easy for a single guy living in a bromansion to say it's not about the money, but I can imagine for people with more "complicated" expenses that it increasingly is. Surveys of what factors into people's decisions to stay or leave always rank pay as a lower motivating force and issues like moving frequently higher. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[bert]

Curious, of the senior guys out there, have any of you had success as a buy and hold landlord over the course of a career? This method seems to be an option to grow long term wealth by military members. Clearly, it can be a huge liability and headache...

There is a certain amount of work involved, but by the same token if you owned rental property last spring you could refinance down to less than 4%. Which is redonkulously, amazingly, staggeringly good for investment property. But if you put yourself in a situation where you couldn't take advantage of that, then it didn't help...

Basically short answer is "yes," but the long answer is "Yes, if the rest of your finances are under control."