O4 List

[exNavyOffRec]

Employers can ask legally for your DD214 and you can legally refuse, unless the type of discharge is relevant to job then you have to (and not just federal jobs).

If they ask knowing that discrimitory information is on there like I listed above they cannot, it used to be allowed but now it is prohibited, they started teaching this to all HR professionals at least 4 years ago.

If they need to know specific information that could prohibit you from holding a clearance for example they know have to ask specific questions, now federal and state gov't can ask for certain things civilians cannot.

The birthdate on the 214 is another issue as employers cannot ask how old you are unless it is relevant to the position.

I have recently been through and certified with HRCI and attending DOL workshops where this was specifically addressed, in fact those exact examples I listed are on a list of prohibited discriminatory questions.

If you have an HR certified person saying you can ask for a DD 214 while knowing that discriminatory information is on it then I can give them the specific chapter and page it is on where it list those questions as discriminatory.

 

[webmaster]

Well my DD214 was required for employment at both my recent jobs. One a dod contracting company. Another a major airline. Both had HR directly asking for a copy. Also DOB asked but that went to third party back ground check companies. FWIW.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Well my DD214 was required for employment at both my recent jobs. One a dod contracting company. Another a major airline. Both had HR directly asking for a copy. Also DOB asked but that went to third party back ground check companies. FWIW.

Airlines if I remember do have an age requirement per federal law correct? and anything DOD related can have exemptions.

There are also questions that cannot be asked during interview but once an offer is made to the individual can be asked as well.

To be honest many HR departments do not keep up with current rules and regulations, all the rules of what can and cannot be asked and when certain things can or cannot be asked is a nightmare, and it gets worse when it involves unions.

I could follow the regulations and ask questions that could legally get all the info on the DD214, such as what training did you receive in the military which would probably give me the answer of what service, or I could ask do you have a list of training rec'd, that could lead the person to give me a DD214.

There is always a way to get the info the legal way.

 

[BOMBSonHAWKEYES]

I know . . . and I get it. I hated to watch what happened to CAPT Honors, and I fully appreciate the "bad things" that have happened to good/great leaders. I just don't want folks to be "distracted" by all the "what-ifs" in this profession we call Naval Aviation when compared to the incredible opportunity that awaits them if their "luck & timing" plays out in their favor.

Please let me tag along the next time you want to roll craps in tahoe/vegas.

 

[NUFO06]

The author was the CNO's speechwriter

http://www.linkedin.com/in/guysnodgrass

 

[smoke_screen]

I respectfully disagree. O5 command continues to be an incredibly challenging, frustrating, humbling and incredibly rewarding tour that is ever changing and challenges daily, the innovation, creativity and yes, "patience" of the front office. The problems will never go away, in fact as you get older and seemingly lose touch with that "younger" generation, will continue to test your skills and abilities. Bonus money and QOL issues aside - having the opportunity to impact the lives, careers and success of future generations of Sailors is something you can't put a price on. Ask the next O5 CO what he likes most about being in command - don't listen to what he says, look in his eyes and "watch" what she/he says . . . .

Your disagreement illustrates the key factor which is inborn reverence for the role and idea of command. Personally I don't have it but plenty of great folks do and godspeed to those people.

I remember at the Academy we had this O-6 Battalion officer who would choke up constantly when talking about "the sailors." The thing is that this guy actually would describe the things that were getting him teary so we all knew the behaviors that were making him cry. I recall thinking "wow it must be very emotive to watch a sailor wake up early to stand duty" or "boy when they salute you going off the brow it must be a very emotional thing" or "jeez having a Chief stand a couple of extra sections of duty in port so every last derelict sailor can enjoy liberty must really be a tear jerker." However, then I got to actually see in person all of the things he described, thinking of that exact Captain on many occasions, and it just didn't have the same impact on me, at all.

Some people are moved by sport, some cry in art museums, some at church, and some people are really into the Navy. If you are thus, then CO is the actualization of this partisanship. I will say that I find some comfort in the opinion of 3 ex O-5 COs that I have actually been able to honestly engage. Two were former DHs of mine. All 3 similarly conveyed that "it's not what it's cracked up to be" - rarely in so many words - in terms of the amount of influence, job satisfaction, etc. You nailed it with "frustrating." I think there is a lot more admin and basic watchstanding involved than advertized, and I will also say that so far my manager in the civilian workforce is twice the mentor, leader, etc, than any CO I ever had... really... and I was flying missions during the peak of our most recent wartime.

I will say "where's the beef" when it comes to command as I saw it, and like everyone else, I was looking carefully to find the substance that everyone glows about.

 

[robav8r]

Your disagreement illustrates the key factor which is inborn reverence for the role and idea of command. Personally I don't have it but plenty of great folks do and godspeed to those people.

I was disagreeing with this:

"O-5 command has been reduced to a game of Russian roulette where you hope that the problems (which, as noted in the paper, will NEVER be eliminated) don't come to light on your watch. Oh, and you're not going to get paid any more money than the O-5 sitting on the Pentagon watch floor who works for eight hours a day. We joke about this regularly, although I'm sure that some of us might accidentally find ourselves in the front office someday just because everyone else took off."

While I agree that depending on one's own career and experiences, Command may not be the brass ring everyone says it is, it certainly is not "Russian Roulette." I've always thought that Sailors need the experiences and leadership of those that have been fighting in combat and doing the really hard jobs these past years, not someone who compares their pay to those doing lesser jobs, with easier job descriptions.

 

[smoke_screen]

I was disagreeing with this:

"O-5 command has been reduced to a game of Russian roulette where you hope that the problems (which, as noted in the paper, will NEVER be eliminated) don't come to light on your watch. Oh, and you're not going to get paid any more money than the O-5 sitting on the Pentagon watch floor who works for eight hours a day. We joke about this regularly, although I'm sure that some of us might accidentally find ourselves in the front office someday just because everyone else took off."

While I agree that depending on one's own career and experiences, Command may not be the brass ring everyone says it is, it certainly is not "Russian Roulette." I've always thought that Sailors need the experiences and leadership of those that have been fighting in combat and doing the really hard jobs these past years, not someone who compares their pay to those doing lesser jobs, with easier job descriptions.

Ha - gotcha - yeah I am with you on that - but I'd still choose the equal pay to work half as much and not have to deal with the police blotter or parking violations : )

 

[BleedGreen]

http://blog.usni.org/2014/03/23/a-n...g-to-share-their-ideas-by-vadm-bill-moran-usn

VADM Moran's thoughts on CDR Snodgrass's paper Naval Retention paper...

 

[Spekkio]

We’ve all been JO’s and yes we can also fall victim to forgetting what it was like, but this is also the power of discourse. The idea that there is a perception that operational command is not valued and there is an erosion of trust in senior leadership bothers me…I want to hear more, learn more from you.

CDR Snodgrass isn't a JO. Had this been written by a JO, there is a much higher chance that it would've been discounted outright but not before ridiculing the author. But he's also not the first officer to say/notice what he did, he's just the first to get any real attention for it.

The cynical side of me thinks that a bunch of people will crunch numbers over this but until the Navy starts gapping CO billets, the conclusion that will be drawn is that there's no problem with the system, only with perception and those darn spoiled millenials who don't want to work hard (since the good CDR spent the better part of a page stereotyping an entire demographic of people born in a 20 year timespan). You can't fix the Navy, it ain't broke. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and the Navy does stop creating a culture where it seems, from the outside looking in, that the path to success as a CO is to be overly cautious with everything and pass tough decisions up to squadron/tycom whenever possible.

At least either give a detailed story why he was fired so we can learn from the mistake(s) or don't give any story at all -- these nondescript Navy Crimes articles and facebook posts fuel the perception that COs walk on eggshells.

 

[azguy]

CDR Snodgrass isn't a JO. Had this been written by a JO, there is a much higher chance that it would've been discounted outright but not before ridiculing the author. But he's also not the first officer to say/notice what he did, he's just the first to get any real attention for it.

Have you read his bio? He's basically Captain America. For better or worse, he is above reproach of being labeled a disgruntled JO having a bitch-fest. If that street cred gets these issues some visibility, so be it.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Have you read his bio? He's basically Captain America. For better or worse, he is above reproach of being labeled a disgruntled JO having a bitch-fest. If that street cred gets these issues some visibility, so be it.

Which Captain America? Generation Kill or Marvel Movies?

 

[Spekkio]

I meant no disprespect to CDR Snograss's distinguished service record (and yes I looked it up because I didn't know if you were referring to Generation Kill), just that a good point is a good point regardless of who makes it. ADM Richardson as COMSUBFOR noted a lot of those issues and wanted increased CO autonomy in the sub force, but was never able to effect any real cultural change before it was time for him to move on.

 

[robav8r]

CDR Snodgrass isn't a JO. Had this been written by a JO, there is a much higher chance that it would've been discounted outright but not before ridiculing the author. But he's also not the first officer to say/notice what he did, he's just the first to get any real attention for it.

Spekkio, sweet jesus you run your scupper a whole lot about a community you know little about. There have been lots of Naval Aviation professionals throughout the years that have tried to articulate a "better" way of doing business. It happened after the end of the Cold War, it happened after Tailhook, it happened while the service was grappling with females in Naval Aviation and the repeal of DADT. Have you ever met VADM Moran? He's a very stand-up Officer who has proven through many years of service that he cares about all of the things CDR Snodgrass mentions in his paper.

 

[Spekkio]

1) Both CDR Snodgrass's paper and VADM Moran's response concern officer manning and perception of command at sea throughout the fleet. I just don't think a JO's name on the top of that same white paper gets nearly the same attention, which is unfortunate, and as mentioned I have seen flag officers recognize many of those problems within the sub force. You say I'm wrong when it comes to aviation disgarding JOs opinions simply because they are JOs then fine. I am actually happy that your community has COs that never dismiss someone's thoughts solely based on the collar device he wears. Please suggest that they spread that mentality to leaders in other communities.

Either way, I'm glad that VADM Moran is listening now.

2) I believe that VADM Moran actually cares about the issue and I never said otherwise. I don't think that flag officers are in the habit of soliciting feedback on blogs because they are looking for a way to kill time. Please don't put words in my mouth. I just think that there's too much institutional inertia for anything of substance to come of it precisely because I've seen other good leaders recognize similar problems and attempt to fix it. It's a challenging problem, requires a culture shift that will take a long time to see through, and requires attention by many people who may have higher priorities.

Having said all that, it seems like a lot of people in this thread (myself included) are in agreement with the majority of CDR Snodgrass's problem analysis and I hope that a lot of JOs give feedback to VADM Moran regarding the suggested solutions, but unfortunately right now 2/6 responses right now are people bitching that flags only pretend to listen.