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Let's hope it goes through and comes to fruition. I'd love to get a US marked Ithaca - just because. I don't care if it's been abused like most issue guns. That just means it has some history. My favorite Garands are the ones I have to put an extra half patch on the cleaning rod - they weren't sitting back in the States, they were used.
I hope not, too. But we'll likely be surprised. M1 Carbines just don't do anything for me. I'd buy one if I could get it for, say, $300-375, but they typically sell on the CMP auction site for a grand:
http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/catalog.asp?catid=363&n=M1-Carbine
I'm guessing the 1911's, if they ever hit the CMP "store" will go for over $750 and will sell out immediately - and lots more on the auction site. The good old days are long over. My first CMP purchase was a "iron only" Garand which turned out to be a 5 Million series IHC - for $275, in the early-mid 90s.
If NSW is going for the Glock, good on them. I don't love them, but they are a reliable tool.
Iron only?
My service-grade M1 is a mash of parts but the receiver is 4 million range. $600 and shoots like a tack. I've learned more about marksmanship from shooting this thing.
John MCCain is rightly giving the army a hard time over modular handgun program which strangely is approaching billion dollar program. For a supposedly commercial off-the-shelf item.
I am starting to come around that pistols are best procured at unit level and unit dollars. From a select set of approved firearms . Simplify.
I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder if this is a better system. Talking generally...not just talking about guns but other fairly inexpensive systems like helmets, vests, etc. I think the big problem is that the supply system has to then source and contract multiple parts from multiple companies, and then keep the supply system fulfilled. I know that's one concern with going to two helo helmet models on the Navy side.
Let's say you need a handgun firing pin. Is that a P228 pin, a P226 pin, a G19 pin, a M9 pin...etc? And if you go to the eMall, everything gets more expensive. For comparison, if you look at the M4 BLK 2 program, there's a list of parts...they all come from one source (for each part). Need a rail, here's your two choices from one company. Need a barrel? Here's your two options. And etc.
Then again, the argument for this is that we do it for so many other things (hey, like handguns!).
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As Gatordev points out, it would make little sense to have multiple types of weapons since it would be a procurement, maintenance and logistical nightmare. The exception being specialized units with specialized needs but your average sailor or soldier is going to need a pistol and not pistol X or Y.
Modern service pistols - like a Glock, Sig, M&P, are from what I have seen, all repayable and serviceable at a small unit level. Rarely do parts wear out on these firearms. And armorer skills are easily taught hands on with basic tools and with instructional videos.
I've been competing (USPSA) for 10 years - Rarely do I see any failures or wear with stock pistols from a major name brand. The firing pin anecdote is just that - an anecdote. Seem reasonable. Firing pin from Glock is a $30 dollar part. Surely a junior enlisted sailor with supervision can be taught to service this entire pistol over a weekend.
As for the lack of warrior culture in the United States navy - it's an issue that we have discussed before in other threads. Why we don't contract laundry, cleaning, and meal services onboard all but the smallest ships is beyond me. I can think of nothing more demotivating for a sailor than working in a ships laundry. If my kid was an E-2 on an carrier working in a laundry I guarantee I'd be on the phone with my congressman. And enlisted uniforms? Probably the most un-inspiring and least professional I can imagine in all the services. Give the Air Force a hard time but they put a premium on the "gucci" stuff which inspires young people. Cool gear is important. The main motivation for most of us to join the military is to play with cool hardware, have a shot at glory and see history made, and brag about it.
I've been competing (USPSA) for 10 years - Rarely do I see any failures or wear with stock pistols from a major name brand. The firing pin anecdote is just that - an anecdote. Seem reasonable. Firing pin from Glock is a $30 dollar part. Surely a junior enlisted sailor with supervision can be taught to service this entire pistol over a weekend.
As for the lack of warrior culture in the United States navy - it's an issue that we have discussed before in other threads. Why we don't contract laundry, cleaning, and meal services onboard all but the smallest ships is beyond me. I can think of nothing more demotivating for a sailor than working in a ships laundry. If my kid was an E-2 on an carrier working in a laundry I guarantee I'd be on the phone with my congressman. And enlisted uniforms? Probably the most un-inspiring and least professional I can imagine in all the services. Give the Air Force a hard time but they put a premium on the "gucci" stuff which inspires young people. Cool gear is important. The main motivation for most of us to join the military is to play with cool hardware, have a shot at glory and see history made, and brag about it.
We are talking about sailors, soldiers and Marines and not a gun owner caring for his own personal weapon. You just can't get around the logistical nightmare it would be for the military, it goes against one of our core philophies of stadardization. It ain't going to happen on a large scale, period.
Because it is a warship and there are serious issues about having civilians aboard but for the limited instances they are now?
I'd argue you (me) and your USPA cohorts take care of their weapons more than someone in the military. Keep in mind, issued guns go through far more rounds than you and I do.
But that's not how the supply system works. I wasn't talking about whether a junior enlisted could repair the weapon. I agree they can, and by a unit level armorer. You can see evidence of that over on the clone threads on ARF. The potential issue is having that part in the system. It's not a $30 part. It's a contracted $3,000 collection of the same part, multiplied by however many reorders is in the contract. Plus, you have to multiply that by however many different types of weapons are on the "approved list" you mentioned.
To be honest, sidearms are kind of a bad example, as so many different communities already purchase different weapons (Raiders, NSW, NAVAIR, conventional USN/USA/USAF/USMC, USCG TACLET, etc). Hell, even within NSW, the issued SEAL gun is a P226, but the issued SWCC gun is the P228.
My question (and really, it was meant as that) is does "Just in Time" supply work better or is it better for the unit (Wing, Group, etc) to procure the parts. Again (forgetting guns for a moment), we're seeing this exact argument pop up with the HGU-56. One reason given for not issuing it is because it requires a whole new parts train set up. You would still have to provide support to the already issued -84 helmets, but now also supply the -56 helmets. And this is as Gentex supposedly has a new design coming in the next few years. Could a unit still buy the -56? Sure (well, kind of...there's some other issues), but NAVAIR doesn't the parts train ready, so now where does the unit go? Gentex? Since there's no contract, you can guess there's going to be a higher price paid.
"Iron only" was an option they used to have - all the metal parts sans wood. Fajen had recently gone out of business and I grabbed a semi-fancy walnut stock from their going out of business sale for 100 bucks. Had the whole deal given the match treatment by Clint Fowler (who was one of the premier Garand 'smiths at the time). It'll hold the 9 and 10 ring - if only I could do my part. ;-)
Right up until the moment you see Seaman Timmy rocking his "crackerjacks" swaggering down the sidewalk in Perth with an Australian hottie on each arm…and unable to pay for a drink in any bar in town. Just saying...
Probably getting cranky in my old age, but this hit me the wrong way. Absent NSW, is "Navy culture" the same as "Every Marine a Rifleman"? No. Nor is it the same as "Rangers Lead The Way", "Knees in the breeze/blood on the risers" or a long list of other "cultures". But it IS "haze gray and underway" for months at a time, endless 14-hour days of the intricate flight deck ballet, the cultures of Destroyermen and The Silent Service, "We Can Build and We Can Fight", yadda yadda yadda.
The Navy has its own brand of "warrior culture(s)" in spades…and no lack of opportunity to "play with cool hardware, have a shot at glory and see history made, and brag about it". Just my $.02.
I have an M1 .30 Carbine made in 1943 by National Postal Meter (barrel by Underwood). Still haven't fired it yet - been meaning to get it to a range soon.
It was issued to my grandpa, a U.S. Navy supply officer who was commissioned in 1942 and served in Oran. He's my inspiration for joining the Navy.
By limited you must mean all of workups and cruise, right? Between the MWR clan, the teachers, cultural area specialists, all the different vendors, "VIPs", the bands, the contractors and the effing Xerox lady there are civilians running around everywhere on deployment. It would make sense to have civilians working the food service and laundry. Maybe if there were enough of them they could just have their own berthing area instead of a bunch of 2 man staterooms.
Peace there - but we have not seen it in the number of medals awarded for Valor - the Navy is way behind the other three services. And frankly thats what in the end drives public popularity and budgetary wins. Naval Aviation is way behind in personal decorations for Valor (the helo community especially so). My opinion. Glory matters - it's not just the quiet satisfaction of a job well done (although it's a large part of course). It's the cool gear, budgetary dollars, fame, attention, popular culture focus., Facebook likes, etc.