NSS changes as of 04AUG08

[BACONATOR]

words

Ya, I was VT-27. I vaguely remember the average GPAs between us and 28 differening by like .1....

 

[bunk22]

A lot of people, including instructors (especially those who came up on the Above, Average, Below system) seem to get that confused. Some squadrons treat MIF like its CTS or view MIF as "average". Their ratios are lower than squadrons that grade to CTS. However, it all works out in the end because you are compared against people in your squadron only. So long as you didn't get the one guy who grades to MIF when everyone else in the squadron grades to CTS then you will be fine.

I realize I am just a student and I hope that didn't come off as being critical of instructors or their grading techniques. I am just pointing out what the MCG says about grading, CTS, and MIF.

Maybe we IP's should give you a call to explain MIF and CTS for us. I would certainly take that student thing to heart. Ever grade someone? Ever take a student out and have to judge them based on MIF? The point I was making has to do with what defines anything other than MIF. In that case, it is subjective.

 

[SDNalgene]

Maybe we IP's should give you a call to explain MIF and CTS for us. I would certainly take that student thing to heart. Ever grade someone? Ever take a student out and have to judge them based on MIF? The point I was making has to do with what defines anything other than MIF. In that case, it is subjective.

You can call, but I don't think it would help your grading or my career.... That's why I said I wasn't trying to be critical. My only point was that the way MIF is defined in the MCG is way different from how it is used by the squadrons. The book says you are supposed to judge students off of CTS, not MIF, but I get the impression from what I have been told by instructors and by comparing notes with students in other squadrons that CTS and MIF are interchangeable. I don't think there is a real way to fix it, at least not without screwing a bunch of students. If you are in a squadron that grades to MIF, I would imagine you have to grade to MIF too, regardless of whether it is in accordance with the MCG guidance. If you didn't grade to MIF then you would be screwing every student who doesn't fly with you often. Like I said, in the end it all works out because you are only compared against students in your squadron.

If I came off as a snotty, embittered student, then mea culpa. All I intended was to paraphrase what the MCG said about MIF and CTS. If I am factually wrong on any of that, then mea culpa again.

 

[bunk22]

You can call, but I don't think it would help your grading or my career.... That's why I said I wasn't trying to be critical. My only point was that the way MIF is defined in the MCG is way different from how it is used by the squadrons. The book says you are supposed to judge students off of CTS, not MIF, but I get the impression from what I have been told by instructors and by comparing notes with students in other squadrons that CTS and MIF are interchangeable. I don't think there is a real way to fix it, at least not without screwing a bunch of students. If you are in a squadron that grades to MIF, I would imagine you have to grade to MIF too, regardless of whether it is in accordance with the MCG guidance. If you didn't grade to MIF then you would be screwing every student who doesn't fly with you often. Like I said, in the end it all works out because you are only compared against students in your squadron.

If I came off as a snotty, embittered student, then mea culpa. All I intended was to paraphrase what the MCG said about MIF and CTS. If I am factually wrong on any of that, then mea culpa again.

Not the SME I take it? No matter how you meant it, it comes off bad. The best way to go about it is to say nothing at all. As a stud, your knowledge is limited due to the experience level alone.

 

[Gatordev]

But what's a strike? Three pinks sheets after 6 yellow sheets? In my day, a down was a down was a pink sheet. No yellow, no marginal, it was above, average, below or unsat. That means the above would be 9 pink sheets. Not sure if that ever happend for pilots. I know it did for NFO's...I saw a few when I was Stucon at the FRS for E2/C2.

Same when I went through. That was my point. Back then, even on MPTS, it was three pink sheets. Miss an event...pink. Fail a test...pink. Get a down...pink.

I agree "now," it's more lenient and takes longer to get someone removed who maybe shouldn't be there.

 

[bunk22]

Same when I went through. That was my point. Back then, even on MPTS, it was three pink sheets. Miss an event...pink. Fail a test...pink. Get a down...pink.

I agree "now," it's more lenient and takes longer to get someone removed who maybe shouldn't be there.

I gotcha. I'm always a bit behind

 

[kmac]

Random notes:
VT-27's current title for low (but passing) NSS is a 24. Get some!

Agree with those that say CTS and MIF vary between squadrons... guess what, they vary on gradesheets too. Let's say that for a given end of block flight, a student rocks it with the exception of one maneuver. For this example we can say that MIF is 4, but by CTS he should only get a 3. It is a required item for the end of block. Am I going to give an unsat for making 1 mistake (that was not unsafe) on the end of block? Probably not. The grade will reflect a 4 to meet MIF not because it was a CTS 4 but because overall the student should progress. There are certain techniques for doing this: "SMA started off as a 3 but progressed to a 4." That usually means the kid didn't do better than a 3, but I'm giving him a 4 just to pass him.

A way to judge whether or not you are doing well is to see how many 4s you are getting. This assumes the squadron is grading based on CTS. The sooner you get 4s on your gradesheets the better you are doing. If MIF is a 3... guess what... you should be striving to be Good at the maneuver and not simply Fair.

And finally, I too am curious how Ops is going to be able to get students accelerated when there is no advantage (or perhaps I should say there is now a disadvantage) to skipping hops. How does that make sense?

 

[donmagicjuan]

Where do you get 200 from?

I'm a little slow on the draw, but here it is in writing (from SNA TA Manual, pg. VII-21):

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder2/1500.4G.pdf

I've not heard anything on a reduction in sample size for sqn avgs with the Aug 08 change, but 200 is the current number.

 

[Gatordev]

I'm a little slow on the draw, but here it is in writing (from SNA TA Manual, pg. VII-21):

The TA manual! That was what I was trying to think of earlier. This actually trumps MPTS, for what it's worth.

 

[RockySLP]

I've read the letter that was passed to my command.

Cliff notes-

2) CPT's and C4000 (FAM's) block will count.

My understanding is different.

As an aside: the letter makes reference to events with "lesson designators ending in 88 and 89"...but not "lesson designators ending in 84, 85, 86, or 87." I have no idea what this means, but circumstantial evidence points toward an alternate name for CPTs and C400X.

It looks as if these events will be used "for the purposes of computing NMU count," meaning that they will be counted as a marginal or an unsat if they were, in fact, marginals or unsats. They apparently only affect the .1 of your PAS that concerns NMU.

The .9 of your PAS that is based on your score has not changed. The eligible events to be included in your score do not appear to have changed. I'm open to other evidence but, until then, it seems that for the majority of students FAMs and CPTs will have no effect on anything (status quo).

I'm a little slow on the draw, but here it is in writing (from SNA TA Manual, pg. VII-21):

Incredible research skills. Rep.

True, the only thing that changed is the sample size is smaller and NMU is replacing TGI.

I don't see any evidence for this, especially given the CNATRA document that is linked above. Until proven otherwise, consider this a rumor and give it the same consideration all rumors are due: to be passed to everyone and believed by no one.

 

[ea6bflyr]

The latest news is that the NEW EFF DATE has been ROLL-EX'D to 11AUG08 due to Hurricane Dolly.

-ea6bflyr

 

[Beans]

As an aside: the letter makes reference to events with "lesson designators ending in 88 and 89"...but not "lesson designators ending in 84, 85, 86, or 87." I have no idea what this means, but circumstantial evidence points toward an alternate name for CPTs and C400X.

No. CPTs and Fams have lesson designators ending in 01, 02, and so on.
The meanings for the other (non-IPC/FPC) lesson designators are not a mystery - they're in the MPTS.
84 = Adaptation
85 = Practice sim
86 = Warmup
87 = Extra training

Using "circumstantial evidence" to draw conclusions creates more rumors.

 

[kmac]

"In addition, for purposes of computing NMU count, overall event grades from academic, simulator, and flight events are to be included in the computation of NMU count, including flight events with lesson designators ending in 88 or 89, and including events for which score is not counted toward NSS. Overall event grades from lesson designators ending in 84, 85, 86, or 87, however, shall not be included in NMU count."

Adaptation, optional/mandatory warm-ups, practice sims, and ET will not count toward NMU count.

Also, word on whether or not the CPTs and C4000 block will count is still up in the air, but it looks to be moving in that direction. (Read: no official word yet)

 

[SDNalgene]

"In addition, for purposes of computing NMU count, overall event grades from academic, simulator, and flight events are to be included in the computation of NMU count, including flight events with lesson designators ending in 88 or 89, and including events for which score is not counted toward NSS.

The way that reads to me is that while FAM 400x and CPTs might not count toward your overall ratio, if you fail them then it counts as an unsat or marginal.

I personally think it would be good if everything counted. There was a girl that I went through with that had 3 pink sheets in CPTs. Needless to say she didn't make it through, but she did get to the early C4200 block flights. That's about 8 wasted flights on the Navy's dime if you ask me. It seemed really hard to get tossed out of primary, too hard in my opinion. It's not that I thought anyone who made it through shouldn't have (though I am sure this may have happened), it just seemed like the command had to wait so long and meet all sorts of wickets (all the while costing the Navy flight and sim time) before they could finally toss someone who shouldn't have been there in the first place. Maybe this new change will help.

 

[kmac]

The way that reads to me is that while FAM 400x and CPTs might not count toward your overall ratio, if you fail them then it counts as an unsat or marginal.

Sorry, let me clarify, I was under the impression that score from CPTs and FAM 4000 block would count. What you are describing though is probably what is more accurate: it counts against the NMU and does not count against the score, but because of the former it therefore does have an effect on NSS.