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November 2022 Dallas Airshow Collision

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But kids, these days, they are not joiners. Whether bowling league, VFW, America Leagion or a fraternity.
This is the excuse made by every organization that deep down has decided to cater to the whims of the oldsters and freeze itself in amber instead of choosing to evolve with the times while preserving its core values.

I can think of several organizations I've joined that have managed to do that. Or at least the local parts of them near me have. And I'm even . . . gasp . . . part of the Oregon Trail Generation, or an Xennial, or an Elder Millennial, depending on who you ask. And I can think of several other organizations which I haven't joined, because my impression is that they're stuck in the past. American Legion and VFW among them, though I am a member of a certain non-collegiate fraternity.

"Kids these days" aren't less of so-called "joiners" than their parents and grandparents. They just don't have time for organizations that cater to their parents and grandparents while making no allowance for, you know . . . them. Who wants to go to a smoky shitty bar to drink Bud Light and hang out with a bunch of WWII and Vietnam vets if all they have to offer is 10,000 variations of "LOL! Wife bad . . . amirite??"
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
This is the excuse made by every organization that deep down has decided to cater to the whims of the oldsters and freeze itself in amber instead of choosing to evolve with the times while preserving its core values.

I can think of several organizations I've joined that have managed to do that. Or at least the local parts of them near me have. And I'm even . . . gasp . . . part of the Oregon Trail Generation, or an Xennial, or an Elder Millennial, depending on who you ask. And I can think of several other organizations which I haven't joined, because my impression is that they're stuck in the past. American Legion and VFW among them, though I am a member of a certain non-collegiate fraternity.

"Kids these days" aren't less of so-called "joiners" than their parents and grandparents. They just don't have time for organizations that cater to their parents and grandparents while making no allowance for, you know . . . them. Who wants to go to a smoky shitty bar to drink Bud Light and hang out with a bunch of WWII and Vietnam vets if all they have to offer is 10,000 variations of "LOL! Wife bad . . . amirite??"
There are still a few VFW/American Legion posts that have bars where you will see people drinking but not many, now around me (and you), most have moved on from that. We have had members kids in our meetings, we participate in school and community events, scholarships, build ramps for veterans that need it and help out our local vets who need assistance. In 10 years I think I have had 2 drinks in a VFW or American Legion.

Some posts are more active than others, but like any organization it takes people to be involved and make suggestions to get things started. One of the things we want to do is have a community movie night for kids in our post, we are moving in the right direction just need to get a few more things done.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
I too am an “elder millennial” or Oregon trail person at age 40 minus a couple months. I work with a lot of gen z, whether that be studs or flight attendants. The one thing that i am constantly reminded of is that they aren’t the caricature of mindless iPhone zombies that we assume them to be. You can actually engage them in conversation, and they are actually real people with real intelligence. This underestimation a lot of people hold is exactly why they aren’t “joining”.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I too am an “elder millennial” or Oregon trail person at age 40 minus a couple months. I work with a lot of gen z, whether that be studs or flight attendants. The one thing that i am constantly reminded of is that they aren’t the caricature of mindless iPhone zombies that we assume them to be. You can actually engage them in conversation, and they are actually real people with real intelligence. This underestimation a lot of people hold is exactly why they aren’t “joining”.
As has been pointed out many times on AW, those elder attitudes seem to always exist. The Greatest Generation were once lazy do nothings. Yet they did "join". What we have seen in the last 25-30 years is different. It is documented. Sure, some organizations have not changed with the times, others have tried and missed. But most could be remolded if enough reformers who saw the basic value joined and participated. Still, there are lots of options out there. It isnt all drunken bowlers, or smoky VFWs. Why are all the docents at the CAF museum old dudes? Is there a problem with hanging around aircraft in a great environment and educating the public?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
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Me neither. Just making a point about a well documented trend that appears to change society In discrete ways.
The trend being that people have better options than bowling or sitting around a sad VFW chapter drinking Miller Lite for recreation? I’d say that’s a good thing.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The trend being that people have better options than bowling or sitting around a sad VFW chapter drinking Miller Lite for recreation? I’d say that’s a good thing.
Agree, there are more options these days. But a very large number people tend to chose, do not include people or group activities. Some people always loved to hike, fish and camp, yet participation in those activities as a group or club meeting to share experiences has dwindled. People still do it, but without any formal social aspect. I think that is the key. Even people that share an interest are hard pressed to gather and talk about or participate in it as a group. I hate to bring up the old bugaboo, because the trend started before social media, but the internet has something to do with it.

Oh, and if the kids are alright, then why the record suicide and drug abuse, let alone the so call deaths of despair in more mature Americans? I am not one of those that is saying young people can't hack it or the military is domed because of their raw material. Not at all. Indeed, those in the military have joined and a social aspect comes with the duty. I am suggesting that the lack of "joining" or extracurricular social interaction in the lives of many Americans is a tragedy revealed in many ways not good for society.
 

villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
As has been pointed out many times on AW, those elder attitudes seem to always exist. The Greatest Generation were once lazy do nothings. Yet they did "join". What we have seen in the last 25-30 years is different. It is documented. Sure, some organizations have not changed with the times, others have tried and missed. But most could be remolded if enough reformers who saw the basic value joined and participated. Still, there are lots of options out there. It isnt all drunken bowlers, or smoky VFWs. Why are all the docents at the CAF museum old dudes? Is there a problem with hanging around aircraft in a great environment and educating the public?
If the VFW wants younger members, isn't the onus on them to appeal to younger members? Sure, it could be remolded, but why should people join an organization that isn't a good fit for them on the hopes that if they put in a ton of effort, maybe (or maybe not) it will evolve into something that is a better fit, when instead they could just do something that's already a better fit? Hey, we know that to you this sucks and sounds terrible; join anyway and if you are lucky you an initiate changes that make it suck less!

If these older organizations want to continue to exist (much less thrive), they need to find ways to attract new members. Just throwing out that if potential new members don't like the organization they should join anyway, put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, and then hope that leads to an organization they actually want to be part of is simply never going to work. Remodel it yourself in order to keep it relevant to future potential members, or else they are never going to come in meaningful numbers. Clearly the "basic value", as it stands isn't enough, or isn't conveyed clearly enough. That's a problem for the current members to address, not for future members to tackle.

If you are part of these organizations and want to see the thrive, what are you doing to attract younger people? If you aren't sure what that looks like, talk to younger people about their impressions of the groups, what appeals to them, what they find unappealing, and what misconceptions exist. Even if bowling and Miller Lite are an inaccurate perception, people join, or not, based on their perceptions so that's the organizations problem to address.

If you think kids not joining things is bad and unhealthy, give them something they want to join.

I recently joined a women's philanthropic organization where the average age is probably 75. (My opportunities to be the youngest person in a room are dwindling, so it's nice to be the youngin' in the group.) I joined because I saw the "basic value", but also because the organization is evolving with the times. The group of 50 years ago wouldn't have been a good fit for me. The group of today is, even though there are still some aspects that feel a little antiquated to me. Those don't overshadow the rest of it. They used to be very Christian-focused, but knowing that's not how younger people tend to operate, they've moved away from that. Meetings used to start with a prayer, but now that has become an inspirational reading, which might be from a non-Christian religious book, or even entirely secular sources, for example. They also have side activities like book clubs and wine tastings. The group evolved and that is drawing in some younger (relatively speaking) members. They didn't just say, "take it or leave it, and once you are here maybe you can change it if you want", because they know that's a bad bargain few will take.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If the VFW wants younger members, isn't the onus on them to appeal to younger members? Sure, it could be remolded, but why should people join an organization that isn't a good fit for them on the hopes that if they put in a ton of effort, maybe (or maybe not) it will evolve into something that is a better fit, when instead they could just do something that's already a better fit? Hey, we know that to you this sucks and sounds terrible; join anyway and if you are lucky you an initiate changes that make it suck less!

This isn't exactly a new problem, I've seen quite a few accounts of Vietnam-era veterans not wanting to join the VFW and American Legion because the older members looked down on them for fighting in a losing war. That is the reason the Vietnam Veterans of American was founded with the motto "Never again will one generation of veterans abandon another."

Locality and time. I know you don't like that answer, but that's what it boils down to.

I inquired about becoming a docent/guide at Udvar-Hazy when I lived nearby, at the time it took two years and a significant amount of volunteer/training time to become one. I know that it is the Smithsonian and probably an exception but still, a bit much to stroll around and talk to tourists. The irony is that they need to work a little on that training from snippets I've heard from time to time.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Also an elder millennial who turns 40 this week. Yep, millennials are old enough to have kids old enough to enlist in the military and/or go to college.


General and sport aviation are having a hard time finding younger pilots. I've been a member of soaring clubs since I was 16. It's not uncommon to have a couple of folks in high school or college who want a relatively (yet still $$$$) cheap way to get flight time more military pilot aps. But they leave fairly quickly.

Other kids don't get excited when you put them in a Sweizer 2-33 to learn. "This was built when my grandpa was born? no thanks." Cue the old guys saying, "Well, it was good enough for 50 years worth of pilot training! Huff/Puff/Kablooie!"

Well, young folks today, growing up in the technology era, have a lot more training (through experience) at a much younger age with computers and digital stuff. They want new stuff, they want fun stuff. You don't give a kid sports equipment from the 50s, 60s, or even 80s, to learn it because "it was good enough for us."

I also think that we under value the online model and then we don't implement it properly or appropriately when we do. I have a niece and nephew in college and another nephew in high school who have friends through online video game networks and leagues and teams. Legit friends, they meet places in the summers in person (globally in the case of my oldest nephew), and travel to in person competitions when/if they make it that far.

Yet we still have kids who are joining and stepping up. I was the sole veteran referee in a D3 NCAA hockey game this past weekend. My other referee was 20, and the two linesmen were both 19. Not old enough to get a drink at the bar after the game. All three of them it was their first college hockey game on the ice wearing the stripes. They did a good job for their first go around, and they were full of questions about everything on the ice. "What should I be looking for here? I thought I saw this. How should I deal with the player in this scenario." Smart kids who have found a niche and want to be good at something for the rest of their lives. My goal is to make sure they come back next season. If they don't, they didn't fail us, we failed them.
 
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villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
This isn't exactly a new problem, I've seen quite a few accounts of Vietnam-era veterans not wanting to join the VFW and American Legion because the older members looked down on them for fighting in a losing war. That is the reason the Vietnam Veterans of American was founded with the motto "Never again will one generation of veterans abandon another."



I inquired about becoming a docent/guide at Udvar-Hazy when I lived nearby, at the time it took two years and a significant amount of volunteer/training time to become one. I know that it is the Smithsonian and probably an exception but still, a bit much to stroll around and talk to tourists. The irony is that they need to work a little on that training from snippets I've heard from time to time.

I went to Udvar Hazy when they were still under Covid restrictions. Many of the docents were virtual. It was pretty cool. They had large screens set up in front of the bigger displays and experts were available for questions, and also seemed to greet, chat, or offer dialog when visitors stepped into their area. Clearly, most if not all of them were sitting at home in front of web-cams because the backgrounds were random bookshelves filled with personal items, or similar. It worked fantastically well. I wonder if they did away with that when their restrictions lifted, or if they kept it. Seems like it would allow for more expert docents to participate in the program. If you want an astronaut available for questions from people standing in front of the shuttle, you are more likely to find one if you aren't geographically limited.

It's also less of a time commitment (and less time away from family), if you don't have to factor in an hour round trip just to get to and from the museum for your volunteer gig. And the bonus that you don't even have to put on pants, as long you you aim your webcam appropriately.

And changes like this are what would likely get more, younger people involved.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I’ll take a second to come to the defense of the VFW. They are working hard to “modernize” and be more attractive to younger veterans. They still have some room to grow with their magazine (still a lot of ads for scooters) but their outreach efforts absolutely lean toward what attracts younger people. Sure, some of the old halls are just places for crusty old dudes to complain, but those are fading away. Me…I have the disadvantage of my hall being located on a federal cemetery so no booze allowed!
 
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wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If the VFW wants younger members, isn't the onus on them to appeal to younger members? Sure, it could be remolded, but why should people join an organization that isn't a good fit for them on the hopes that if they put in a ton of effort, maybe (or maybe not) it will evolve into something that is a better fit, when instead they could just do something that's already a better fit? Hey, we know that to you this sucks and sounds terrible; join anyway and if you are lucky you an initiate changes that make it suck less!
I am not here to defend the VFW or American Legion. I have never been in a VFW and an American Legion twice, on business. The point I am making is fewer people (not just young people) join at all. Despite your suggestion, it isn't like someone thinks the VFW is a bad fit and goes down the street to another organization that does good work for the veterans or any other good cause.
if you are part of these organizations and want to see the thrive, what are you doing to attract younger people? If you aren't sure what that looks like, talk to younger people about their impressions of the groups, what appeals to them, what they find unappealing, and what misconceptions exist. Even if bowling and Miller Lite are an inaccurate perception, people join, or not, based on their perceptions so that's the organizations problem to address.
Well in my case, ahh... promoting the AAHF on Airwarriors? Speaking to high schoolers with a demonstrated interest in aviation. Meeting with JROTC and ROTC cadets.
If you think kids not joining things is bad and unhealthy, give them something they want to join.
Again, the point is they join, any type organization, at a lower rate that before. In the case I am most familiar with, our AAHF chapter, we offer the chance to work on aircraft in various capacities, be mentored by highly successful people in and out of the military, serve the cause of veterans and educate the public about Army Aviation and the aircraft we have. If a 20 something is only interested in online gaming or music we can't change what we offer to attract them. Aircraft need maintenance, the downtown 4th of July event, the veterans parade and a day flying the public needs a crew. I am telling you, we make appeals to people who should be interested, who can't find the opportunity anywhere else, and the return is pitiful. I am not a bad salesman either. I was a recruiter :) .
This isn't exactly a new problem, I've seen quite a few accounts of Vietnam-era veterans not wanting to join the VFW and American Legion because the older members looked down on them for fighting in a losing war. That is the reason the Vietnam Veterans of American was founded with the motto "Never again will one generation of veterans abandon another."
True enough. And what did they do? They created and joined an organization. And eventually, the Vietnam Vets have returned to VFWs.

The VFW was a major player in the creation of the GI Bill. It is very likely the GI Bill would have languished for decades if not for the VFW. It just isn't about being comfortable in the bar.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
I’ll take a second to come to the defense of the VFW. They are working hard to “modernize” and be more attractive to younger veterans. They still have some room to grow with their magazine (still a lot of ads for scooters) but their outreach effort absolutely lean toward what attracts younger people. Sure, some of the old halls are just places for crusty old dudes to complain, but those are fading away. Me…I have the disadvantage of my hall being located on a federal cemetery so no booze allowed!
I think many don't realize how many under 50 veterans are in the vfw, when we have older vets that need yard work or home repair you see those guys come out and do all the work. They may not make the meetings due to work, kids, or other stuff at night, but they show up when needed!
 
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