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Navy Working Uniform Type II and III - finally something sailors can wear....

snake020

Contributor
Not sure about the Navy, but the MSM used to be a peacetime medal only. After 2001 the army authorized them for award in a combat theater under the caveat that a recommendation for an MSM can not be upgraded to a Bronze Star nor can a recommendation for a Bronze Star be down-graded to an MSM. My experience was that (mostly senior) guys who were routinely exposed to combat but did nothing particularly “brave” were awarded a BS (for merit in combat) while the hard-working folks on the FOBs (who did necessary and critical work) got an MSM (for merit at work). I personally never saw a genuine REMF/FOBIT get a BS.

During my brief time with the Air Force, I was deployed to Al Udeid AB in '07 augmenting an aircraft maintenance squadron, and was in charge of planning the change of command. The CO so got butthurt when he got wind the group commander was awarding him a MSM as his EOT (as every other AF squadron commander at the Died that year except for the comptroller squadron was awarded a Bronze Star for their EOT) he tried to have the medal presentation erased from the ceremony ?. Group commander said no, you're getting your MSM presented.

Yes, the awarding of the MSM vice Bronze Star was for perceived poor performance.
 
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wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
During my brief time with the Air Force, I was deployed to Al Udeid AB in '07 augmenting an aircraft maintenance squadron, and was in charge of planning the change of command. The CO so got butthurt when he got wind the group commander was awarding him a MSM as his EOT (as every other AF squadron commander at the Died that year except for the comptroller squadron was awarded a Bronze Star for their EOT) he tried to have the medal presentation erased from the ceremony ?. Group commander said no, you're getting your MSM presented.
When my father in law turned over command in Vietnam (O6, so I think Battalion) he told the General in the car on the way to the ceremony he would not accept a Legion of Merit in front of the troops. He insisted they were responsible for his success and felt the award for him was an insult to them. If that meant he didn't get the award at all, so be it. General was ticked and tried to talk him into it. My father in law prevailed and he got the award in private. But he was convinced it derailed the balance of his career. No bother. He got a PhD and no payback tour.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
When my father in law turned over command in Vietnam (O6, so I think Battalion) he told the General in the car on the way to the ceremony he would not accept a Legion of Merit in front of the troops. He insisted they were reasonable for his success and felt the award for him was an insult to them. If that meant he didn't get the award at all, so be it. General was ticked and tried to talk him into it. My father in law prevailed and he got the award in private. But he was convinced it derailed the balance of his career. No bother. He got a PhD and no payback tour.
Medals are temporary, pride is forever!

(As on O-6 it would have likely been a brigade)
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
When my father in law turned over command in Vietnam (O6, so I think Battalion) he told the General in the car on the way to the ceremony he would not accept a Legion of Merit in front of the troops. He insisted they were reasonable for his success and felt the award for him was an insult to them. If that meant he didn't get the award at all, so be it. General was ticked and tried to talk him into it. My father in law prevailed and he got the award in private. But he was convinced it derailed the balance of his career. No bother. He got a PhD and no payback tour.
Out of all the metaphorical hills to die on, that's kind of a silly one, honestly.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Regiment. Brigades are for brigadiers
Not in the army. Regiments are just battalion place holders for unit flags (with the odd exception of the 2d and 3d Cavalry). They don’t deploy as regiments like the Marines.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Ah. I didn’t know that. Wink, was he army or marine?
You know what, now that I read it again I assumed army. The Marines (in my humble opinion) have it right by consolidating their regiments as complete units. The army has, for example, the 7th Cavalry Regiment but that “unit” is divided between brigades in Texas, Georgia, and Korea.
 
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wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Out of all the metaphorical hills to die on, that's kind of a silly one, honestly.
How many metaphorical hills do you get to choose from? Timing and circumstances dictate. I am sure if you knew the story, the accomplishments of his brigade, the blood sweat and tears of the troops, you would find his decision very worthy. This wasn't a garden variety EOT award. He already had a Legion of Merit and two Bronze Stars. I was a LT on active duty when he told me the story over a campfire on a hunting trip. It made a huge impression on me. As I became more senior the story began to mean different things to me. None of which was a futile sacrifice on a metaphorical hill.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Bottom line: BS=air medal for non aviators.

The way the awards manual reads, it equates the strike/flight air medal to the combat action ribbon.

“The CR will not be awarded to personnel for aerial combat, since the Strike/FlightAir Medal provides
recognition for aerial combat exposure”.

BS (non-V) is the combat zone equivalent of the MSM.
 
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