Navy Missile Cruiser Runs Aground Near Honolulu

[DanMa1156]

There was a great set of articles last month in Proceedings that detailed the woeful state of SWO training, and the relative lack of shiphandling skills in the US Navy. The best was an article by a SWO JO who had done an exchange tour with the Brits on one of their destroyers - when he showed up, he thought he was one of the better ship-drivers at his level in our Navy. He found that compared to the Brits, he was ridiculously under-qual'd. He said he had to bust his ass just to make their minimum standards. Makes me wonder if any of the post-mortems on this incident will relate to training and basic ship-handling skills.

Agreed with the Brits. I did a summer cruise on a YP with one and his standards for conning/being the OOD were insanely higher than any American officer I've seen. His knowledge of the sea was easily far superior than any American officer either. I was very very impressed with him and learned a lot about being an effective Con and OOD that cruise.

 

[BigRed389]

BigRed: I understand that but is there no moving map which would upload/download those charts to overlay your position.. Much like my Garmin does? Or even the car GPS which is dependent on the accuracy of the database... I understand it depends on charted waters, etc... But do you understand my question? Either the water they were in was uncharted, or they were not where they thought they were, or they were AFU... Is there a moving map with the charts to show the ship's position?

I'm not entirely getting the question.

Yes, most ships have chart overlays showing restricted waters, etc...our VMS does that, and cruisers are supposed to be pretty well modernized. However, it's also a little more complicated.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2007/09/fundamentals-of-running-aground.html
Link to MSG traffic on the ARLEIGH BURKE running aground. How the navigation system (note nav system as a WHOLE, not just GPS) got jacked up is very well described. Note how INS started to reject GPS inputs. The real issue is the gyro was setup improperly.

This may have nothing to do with what happened to PORT ROYAL of course, but it gives you an idea of how things are set up.

It's also shit like this that makes me want to punch people in the face when they say to just press the "I believe button" instead of trying to learn how their gear actually works.

 

[BigRed389]

I believe there's some platform out there (ECDIS-N, maybe) that does just that. Never seen it though, BigRed correct me if I'm totally wrong.

BigRed's point is that GPS and RADAR still fail, and you have to know what to do when you don't have those tools. You also have to be careful not to rely too much on them. In the case of USS LA MOURE COUNTY, IIRC they were relying entirely on GPS and when they ran aground they turned out to be ~50 miles from where GPS said they were.

Exactly. You can safely navigate without GPS. It's been done for years, and it's pretty simple.
Basic seamanship will only fail you in really bad low visibility (and then why the hell are you transiting restricted waters?) or if training of watchstanders is inadequate.

Seriously, coming back into Norfolk is a really long transit, easy to lose focus. But if you just take a look out the goddamn window, you can have a pretty good idea where you are. There are enough visual references that it's almost like reading street signs.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Exactly. You can safely navigate without GPS. It's been done for years, and it's pretty simple.

Agreed...

My point is that A/C use GPS for approaches and to navigate all over the skies with very good accuracy and reliabilty; there are many backups with INS, VORs and to some degree dead-reckoning.. I just don't understand if ships utilize THEIR (radar, triangulation, celelstial) tools (to include GPS) for navigation in similar manners.

My question is simple.. "Do ships have a moving map display that uses GPS position, similar to your car?" "And if they do, assuming GPS is accurate, do they use it?" "And if they do then how do things like this happen?"

I know the obvious GPS broke, bad charts, et cetera.. I am operating from the assumption that they are working correctly.. And if they don't have these tools, why? GPS is cheap.. I know when I flew T-2s that squadron went out and bought the IPs handhelds to keep folks from breaking the MOA boundries..

 

[xj220]

I believe the newer subs such as the Virginia class have electronic charts. Basically tables that are flat panel screens than you can fully customize.

 

[navy09]

"Do ships have a moving map display that uses GPS position, similar to your car?"

Yes.

"And if they do, assuming GPS is accurate, do they use it?"

Yes, they use it. When operating close in to land, it's used in conjunction with visual navaids, radar ranges, and the infamous seaman's eye.

"And if they do then how do things like this happen?"

Things like this happen when the technology fails. Just because GPS has always worked for you in your plane doesn't mean it always works for everyone everywhere.

*Note: I'm not implying that this tangent has anything to do with the PORT ROYAL incident.

 

[swerdna]

Agreed...

My point is that A/C use GPS for approaches and to navigate all over the skies with very good accuracy and reliabilty; there are many backups with INS, VORs and to some degree dead-reckoning.. I just don't understand if ships utilize THEIR (radar, triangulation, celelstial) tools (to include GPS) for navigation in similar manners.

My question is simple.. "Do ships have a moving map display that uses GPS position, similar to your car?" "And if they do, assuming GPS is accurate, do they use it?" "And if they do then how do things like this happen?"

I know the obvious GPS broke, bad charts, et cetera.. I am operating from the assumption that they are working correctly.. And if they don't have these tools, why? GPS is cheap.. I know when I flew T-2s that squadron went out and bought the IPs handhelds to keep folks from breaking the MOA boundries..

Yes ships have GPS and many other Nav devices. They are much more accurate than the one in your car. As for whether or not they were using them...it's pretty much a given that they were. But keep in mind that the ocean floor (shallow or deep) is usually shifting. So even if they used proper GPS and Nav devices, it may not have mattered. I remember seeing the dredgers in San Diego Bay very often. The PR grounding could be the result of a shifted sand bed.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Things like this happen when the technology fails. Just because GPS has always worked for you in your plane doesn't mean it always works for everyone everywhere.

I would be curious to know what that failure rate is.. I have seen degraded satellite coverage and battery failures (my boats GPS, my handheld, Car GPS, and in the A-300/310).. And in some parts of the world there is NO coverage.. But I bet that failure rate is low and you have back-ups as mentioned.. A ship could have more than 1 GPS, hell have 500... Tomahawks don't seem to have all the GPS problems that it sounds like these ships seem to have... I am not saying ignore other systems.. Shit, we ID the ILS with morse code; why when the A/C is suppose to not allow for a false signal because it receives from 2 receivers and won't allow display without matching ID from both.. I accept answers to questions 1 and 2 but I am still not convinced on 3..

Not trying to be a pain but I am just curious as last time I was on a ship smaller than a CV was USS Leyte Gulf for my summer cruise, many moons ago...

 

[FrankTheTank]

But keep in mind that the ocean floor (shallow or deep) is usually shifting. So even if they used proper GPS and Nav devices, it may not have mattered.

Now that is somthing I haven't thought of.. Thanks.. I would have thought that would be somewhat predictable with tables and past performances but I don't know much about those kind of things...

 

[MasterBates]

The way nav is done is typical SWO IMHO.

Lets do this the most painful way possible, and suck at it while we are there.

The SWOs on my last boat had HORRIBLE conning skills. As in I could do an approach, conn alongside and breakaway during an UNREP better than any JO SWO, and I had only watched it done once before the CO asked me if I wanted to try it.

I don't know where they DON'T learn the boat handling skills, but they seriously need a "FAM syllabus" where they can play with the boat and see what does what in a safe environment (read- deep water with nothing other than some bumpers to hit)

And no, simulators are not good enough.

 

[navy09]

I would be curious to know what that failure rate is..

I don't know. A failure in the system (i.e. dude on bridge suddenly can't see where he is) doesn't have to be related to the GPS itself, as in a broken antenna or some problem with reception. The computer could overlay the chart incorrectly or maybe the display could crap out.

All I know from my cruises is that stuff breaks a lot. I remember standing on the bridge at about 0400 off the coast of China with about 20 contacts along the horizon (dhows, merchants, CVN). All of the sudden the scope shits the bed. This is just one example. That stuff happens a lot and you have to know what to do when that stuff isn't there.

I'm sure I'm just telling you what you already know, as this rule applies to the cockpit as well as the pilot house.

 

[BigRed389]

Now that is somthing I haven't thought of.. Thanks.. I would have thought that would be somewhat predictable with tables and past performances but I don't know much about those kind of things...

It should be predictable.

All soundings and clearances are taken in a way that accounts for and minimizes the risk of all those factors. They're taken over years and years...accounting for the moon's cycles and all that astronomy crap.

I would be curious to know what that failure rate is.. I have seen degraded satellite coverage and battery failures (my boats GPS, my handheld, Car GPS, and in the A-300/310).. And in some parts of the world there is NO coverage.. But I bet that failure rate is low and you have back-ups as mentioned.. A ship could have more than 1 GPS, hell have 500... Tomahawks don't seem to have all the GPS problems that it sounds like these ships seem to have... I am not saying ignore other systems.. Shit, we ID the ILS with morse code; why when the A/C is suppose to not allow for a false signal because it receives from 2 receivers and won't allow display without matching ID from both.. I accept answers to questions 1 and 2 but I am still not convinced on 3..

Not trying to be a pain but I am just curious as last time I was on a ship smaller than a CV was USS Leyte Gulf for my summer cruise, many moons ago...

Except the nav system that is the "brains" behind the moving map, NAVSSI, uses more than GPS.
In ARB's case, the gyros weren't set up right, so even though GPS was correct, the two weren't matching up. NAVSSI then switched over to INS inputs only, except obviously the gyros weren't giving correct EPs. The bridge team didn't know how to read the display and assumed it was GPS inputs they were looking at.

If you want the simple explanation, the fact is shipboard nav systems can be screwed up even if GPS is perfectly functional.

 

[H20man]

GPS is nothing but one tool on the bridge and should NEVER EVER be used as a primary means of navigation.

When navigating in confined waters, GPS should be used as a backup and as a secondary tool. The navigation team needs to be taking visual fixes, soundings, radar fixes, and then using GPS to help verify.

Having been on two ships with ECDIS there is lag associated with displayed position, and especially in confined waters it is a big no no to be using it. THere are a lot of problems with relying on ECDIS... has it been updated with all the Notice to Mariners, new obstructions, buoys or navigation marks moved or no longer in existance? A chart that is properly maintained is a far more effective tool than a computerized map that can become outdated very easily.

Also buoy hopping ie illegal. Buoys can be moved or knocked out of place by ocean conditions or by a ship hitting them, they are only anchored to the ocean floor.

Also when coming into port, if a ship is using a pilot it is still the captain's responsibility to ensure safe navigation of the ship.

BRM... we us it in the merchant industry and is just a take off CRM. Use all personnel and resources on the bridge.

Also having a screwed up gyro is no excuse. It should always be checked before entering and leaving port. Azimuths and amplitudes while out at sea and for in port, just check the true direction the ship is facing while at the pier.

Training:
I don't know the extent of the training the Navy gives one before being allowed to take the conn, but here is what it takes to earn a license to take the watch as a 3rd mate at my school. While it can be different for other schools, it's really about the same as its required by the Coast Guard.

300+ days at sea as a cadet, 13 hours at the helm of the ship, 13 weeks in the simulator, and 4 years worth of classes before my class was given the keys to a ship as a 3rd mate. While I may not be sailing on my license my classmates are and some are on ships where the watch only consists of them and an Able Bodied Seaman who acts as lookout and helmsman.

I'll hop off my soapbox now.

PS: In the merchant industry the Navy is considered a joke when it comes to navigation skills

 

[FlyinSpy]

I had an interesting conversation with a co-worker who is an O-3 SWO-converting-to-EDO. He said that on his last ship, the skipper was a micromanager, and even though he was the sea-and-anchor detail OOD, the skipper still essentially managed the entire evolution. He said he felt very uncomfortable with his own ship-handling skills because of the lack of enabled training. Fast forward to the change-of-command, and the new skipper is on-board. First time they're coming out of port, the new skipper tells my co worker that "he's going to have to rely on him heavily for this evolution, since his own ship-handling skills are extremely rusty and that he was a destroyer guy now on an Aegis cruiser." My buddy turned white and said (privately) "Uhh, sir, that might not be the best idea..." and went on to explain the situation with the prior skipper.

They made it out without running into anything, but he said the pucker factor was high. Wonder if the PORT ROYAL might have had a similar scenario?

 

[FrankTheTank]

Appreciate the responses... Lots of good info...