Naval Aviator vs Airline route

[zippy]

I also don't think the regionals will exist in their current form in another 5 years. The issue I see is majors hiring increasingly junior pilots on a seniority list for 30+ years. It's really hard to gauge maturity and fit of a 20-something

Eh, you can usually figure that out after the first day and overnight with them. If they’re terrible its easy to send them packing their first year.

All good points. A series of aggressive over-corrections does seem to be the industry standard. We're at an interesting inflection point, at least from an outsider's perspective.

Just curious, but is there any unifying reason to why the military guys aren't passing interviews, or just individual circumstances? It seemed to me the most cut-and-dried process (by far) out of the various jobs I interviewed for when I got out. XP + prep = job.

For mil direct transitioning it’s mostly attitude/personality driven. For mil that took a stop somewhere else, it’s a combination of personality and/ or poor past performance in training or on the line, or fear that the person is just using them as a stepping stone.

Sometimes the personality stuff is the person comes off as arrogant, evasive, insecure, self centered or just isn’t relatable to the interviewers. From some of the stories I’ve heard and people I know who have gotten TBNT they’ve been pretty fair and given for legitimate reasons. Legacies, FedEx/UPS and SWA aren’t failing people at interviews for fun or because they want to see if they come back.

Military resumes and applications tend to stand out from their civilian counterparts with a lot more diversity in jobs and flying. There’s a very proven path for military transitions to the airlines so often times it’s up to the applicant to not stand out anymore than historical norms during the interview. Airlines have interviewed a lot of military folks transitioning so there’s a very good likelihood that they’ve interviewed dozens if not hundreds of people with the exact same career path at every point so while each applicant experiences are unique to themselves they’re pretty common when compared to the same type of applicant. Coming off as unlikeable is a bigger threat for military transitions than having a resume that doesn’t check enough boxes to get them to the interview.

 

[wink]

I am watching the Sky West part 135 move. It may be a back to the future moment. I understand that 50 seater RJs proved uneconomical, but that was with part 121 costs. I also am aware of the history in this country of LCA alter egos to big main line legacies has not panning out as well. In this environment a Part 135 operations allows Sky West to bring in FOs at less than an ATP, grow their own at reduced pay rates and then move them to the Part 121 operation when fully qualified, all the while, they will be able to serve some markets they have pulled out of. The part 135 operation allows them to increase (or maintain) market penetration, pay lower rates (smaller planes and lower qualifications), and create a pathway to employment for less qualified pilots on the 121 side.

For the record, as someone who flew for a part 135 and 121 commuter airline in the mid 90s with nothing larger than a Shorts 360 and no more than 10 planes, the pay did suck. But, I never, ever met anyone coming up that refused the job, for pay or anything else. Only guys that left were to move up. Very few laterals and no one leaving aviation because the pay was too low. Twenty first century Regional Airline pay just isn't that bad. You can live on it just fine. Relative to The Show, it is much less lucrative, but you are also not as productive, hauling around 75-100 peeps at a time. I am not of the mind that we have plenty of pilots but not willing to fly at Mesa or Sky West. That there is no pilot shortage. If we have "qualified" pilots who do not want to work for a regional for 2-5 years to get to The Show and the big pay off, it isn't just wages. Many folks just don't like the time from home, Oh dark thirty get ups, the commute, red eyes, constant training, etc.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Doesn't the SW 135 thing have to do with flying Fed subsidized Essential Air Service Routes - that Sky West will make a fortune on?

 

[HuggyU2]

But, I never, ever met anyone coming up that refused the job, for pay or anything else.

"Refused the job", sure.
However I know a lot of pilots that didn't "refuse an offer" because they refused to even apply. They decided to sit it out and wait until one of the sexier options asked them to dance.
I'm one of them.

 

[wink]

"Refused the job", sure.
However I know a lot of pilots that didn't "refuse an offer" because they refused to even apply. They decided to sit it out and wait until one of the sexier options asked them to dance.
I'm one of them.

Well OK. If you are offered a job flipping burgers at Wendy's and you are qualified to be Manager at Ruth's Chris, then it is understandable that you would wait for that Ruth's Chris interview. That sounds like you. But that is not what I am talking about, or what the implication is when someone says there is no pilot shortage, that people won't work for the wages the typical operation pays aside from The Show.

If someone is moving up through aviation via the civ route, they WILL NOT refuse in any way shape or form, a job at the next higher level just for pay, unless there is a lateral option that pays slightly better. I lived that. Military guys that are not current or need more fixed wing time are in a different category because they are usually older, have families and are coming off a pretty decent active duty wage. I can see a guy saying Regional pay isn't worth it and just get a job with a beltway bandit.

The biggest issue with civilian source pilots is the cost of entry. It is just too expensive to get to the new 1500 hr mark. And with all Regionals being part 121, there is a significant gap in the progression of pilots building hours. They don't fly bank checks anymore, pipeline and canal inspections are done increasing by drones, traffic reports are viewed through remote video cameras now, single engine charters are greatly reduced, the complete landscape has changed in just 10 years or so. If you don't have civ training starts or they don't complete through Comm SEL, it isn't because Regional pay sucks.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Proposals would ease standards, raise retirement age to address pilot shortage

Airlines blame a shortage of pilots for widespread cancellations and reduced service. Would allowing pilots to keep flying past age 65 and reducing the 1,500-hour flight training requirement help?

www.npr.org

 

[wink]

"There's a shortage of plans," says Tajer, adding that airline "management did not plan for this recovery" in air travel.

Tajer suggests that to the extent there is a shortage of pilots, the airlines brought that upon themselves. He points out that even though the airlines received $50 billion in taxpayer funding to keep employees on the payroll during the pandemic, many of them gave pilots generous early retirement packages, including partial pay, benefits and other enticements.

"To save money, they incentivized pilots to retire early and they never started training the pilots that would fill those seats," Tajer said.

I agree with that statement. I took an early out that did not have any provision for me to come back even if I wanted to, and the Company could not require me to return. Worked for me. Apparently, for too many. It sure isn't because a median salary of over $100,000 for a Regional isn't high enough.

 

[SynixMan]

Proposals would ease standards, raise retirement age to address pilot shortage

Airlines blame a shortage of pilots for widespread cancellations and reduced service. Would allowing pilots to keep flying past age 65 and reducing the 1,500-hour flight training requirement help?

www.npr.org

Congress: Our safety rules were so effective there hasn't been a full on passenger aircraft crash since our new rules, so fuck it, we're gonna relax them. Oh and we'll let the boomers stick around longer too. ?

Edit: in a non-joking sense, I get the media is gonna bite on coverage of any legislation that addresses a pain point that many folks are feeling. I hope the pax carriers un-fuck themselves before this gets more traction.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Proposals would ease standards, raise retirement age to address pilot shortage

Airlines blame a shortage of pilots for widespread cancellations and reduced service. Would allowing pilots to keep flying past age 65 and reducing the 1,500-hour flight training requirement help?

www.npr.org

Called it.