Naval Aviator vs Airline route

[wink]

I always thought I had the best of all worlds in aviation. I went in as a civ pilot NFO. Made me great at the copiloting duties and very respectful of my pilot's talent and challenges. Spent time in a small commuter, not even a regional, flying turbo props with civ kids building time. Even though we may have had similar civ log books, the difference between us in general airmanship, aeronautical adaptability, systems knowledge and maturity was vast. I know today's helo guys taking a detour though the regionals, like @HokiePilot, have seen the same thing. And then, I made it to The Show. Had pilots I flew with in the Navy both senior and junior to me. The guys senior to me ended up with the same career (mil and civ) except maybe, a bit more money, IF they were not giving it away to an ex spouse or lost it in a failed business/investments, got burned in the CA housing bubble, etc. You can script your life, but you can't get through a production without re-writes. Ask anyone in Hollywood.

 

[MGoBrew11]

He says he is 19+ months from even starting primary. That means 31 months minimum until he starts his commitment, very likely more. He will be at a regional or Atlas/ATI/etc by then for sure if he tries hard at all... Assuming no big recession.

Meanwhile, I spent 12 years on AD to get to the same place. Wouldn't do it different, but that's because of a lot of motivations that the OP hasn't indicated that he shares.

He’s using exaggerated timelines he’s probably reading on forums on this website. It wont’t take 13+ months to get through NIFE. Come on man. Like I said, I agree with you and OP it’s a question that merits consideration. But his clock to start commitment is probably faster than publicized on the airwarriors student scuttlebutt page.

Edit: also not assuming a big recession is a big assumption...especially right now.

 

[Mirage]

He’s using exaggerated timelines he’s probably reading on forums on this website. It wont’t take 13+ months to get through NIFE. Come on man. Like I said, I agree with you and OP it’s a question that merits consideration. But his clock to start commitment is probably faster than publicized on the airwarriors student scuttlebutt page.

Edit: also not assuming a big recession is a big assumption...especially right now.

OP provided info on his proposed timeline and desires, which I imagine he knows better than us. Why are we projecting our desires/motivations and timelines onto him to answer his question?

Point is the same. He will be an airline pilot in 2-2.5 years if he starts training now, flying 1000 hours 121 time per year. Or he could go Navy and wait 12+ years to get to the same place. If he wants the Navy like we all did, then great, but if he wants an airline career primarily as he's stated, then how will his airline career be benefitted by starting a decade later?

 

[MGoBrew11]

OP provided info on his proposed timeline and desires, which I imagine he knows better than us. Why are we projecting our desires/motivations and timelines onto him to answer his question?

Point is the same. He will be an airline pilot in 2-2.5 years if he starts training now, flying 1000 hours 121 time per year. Or he could go Navy and wait 12+ years to get to the same place. If he wants the Navy like we all did, then great, but if he wants an airline career primarily as he's stated, then how will his airline career be benefitted by starting a decade later?

I’m not projecting anything. I don’t give two hoots what he ends up doing. Just don’t want him to have bad gouge. The timeline he provided sounds....off. Like it came from rumor mongering ensigns.

An airline pilot told him it would take awhile on the civilian side...not 2.5 years. Where on earth are you getting that from?

 

[Yardstick]

I’m not projecting anything. I don’t give two hoots what he ends up doing. Just don’t want him to have bad gouge. The timeline he provided sounds....off. Like it came from rumor mongering ensigns.

An airline pilot told him it would take awhile on the civilian side...not 2.5 years. Where on earth are you getting that from?

I can confirm that the projected timelines for NIFE and Primary are fairly close to what OP put forth. As always, things can happen to decrease that timeframe but apparently there are close to 800 studs awaiting class up in Pensacola right now

 

[zippy]

I can confirm that the projected timelines for NIFE and Primary are fairly close to what OP put forth. As always, things can happen to decrease that timeframe but apparently there are close to 800 studs awaiting class up in Pensacola right now

That happens evert spring and summer when USNA and ROTC send their graduates down.

If the OP isn’t super keen on military service he’ll probably resent all the non flying bs that goes along with being a military pilot.

Airline hiring is bonkers right now as the majors sought to replace their early out pilots. They were able to do that mostly from mid 21 to mid 22 but now we’re at the beginning of a recession. Airline hiring usually slows down during those and we’ve already started to see carriers readjust their fleet count projections for CY 22 and 23. There’s a political push to extend the regiment age by 2 years and AA is projecting their regional pilot shortage to be over in 2 years.

What’s the point of mentioning all those things? I’m not convinced that going a straight civilian route is going to be as smooth or quick sailing as regional airline recruiters like to make it out to be. There’s a lot of unknowns that could delay timelines and while it’s annoying when you’re in the military getting a paycheck, it could be financially devastating going the self funded route and piling on a ton of debt in a “fast paced“ program (which you have to qualify to get the loan for), or really slow down time to train if a person flies on the side while they work a traditional job to stay financially solvent.

JetBlues gateway program it’s advertising a cost of $110k and 3.5 years. AA is 3 years and $120k. United is $90k and 2.5 years. Frontier is in “as little as 24 months and average $90,000“ by going through ATP which is historically longer and more expensive than advertise.

One pathway is definitely slower but historically more stable during up and down swings and the other pathway is higher risk, higher reward if it gets the OP on a seniority list sooner.

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[ChuckMK23]

there are close to 800 studs awaiting class up in Pensacola right now

It's interesting to contrast what the AF does. Similar problem but addressed differently. Newly commissioned 2Lt's are sent to IRR in many cases until their respective UPT class starts.

 

[jointhelocalizer]

Question for the group:

Do y'all think airline cadet programs are the way of the future or do you think they'll go away once the shortage is fixed (if it ever does)? In other words, do you think they will be the primary source of airline pilots on the civ side or do you think there will still be a considerable amount of building ratings on one's own without a formal program (independent 141 or 61)?

 

[FlightEngineerBobby]

What a ridiculous question from someone who has 0 fucking hours AND no commission. “Hey guys should I pay more money than it takes to go to medical school to join a sweatshop industry for years before I line up with a billion other minimum-required hour nobodies to interview for my first real job, or actually get paid to be the coolest guy in the room for the rest of my youth THEN cash out when I’m too old to care about that anymore?”

Who fucking cares about your seniority or whatever when you’re an old fat bastard airline pilot on his second divorce? The cushy lifestyle and big money they love to talk about won’t seem like such a big deal without the good memories of tougher, better times when all you did was fly fast, talk trash and eat ass (F2T2EA, look it up).

This

 

[Gatordev]

It's interesting to contrast what the AF does. Similar problem but addressed differently. Newly commissioned 2Lt's are sent to IRR in many cases until their respective UPT class starts.

The Navy did that as well in the early to mid-90's. Kind of a bone job to put in all the work and then get told you're not getting paid for a while, especially if you just graduated from college not worrying about lining up work.

 

[gparks1989]

Wisdom

I can't like this post enough. Amazing.

Also the only certainty the OP has right now is a ticket to OCS. The civ-to-airline path has almost zero certainty to it. I get it, airline hiring is bonkers right now. Until it isn't. Just like saying, "you should go fly F-22s for the HANG instead of taking the OCS ticket you already have." Ya in theory it works, but in practice a wee bit harder and far less guaranteed.

 

[mad dog]

…I’m a month or so away from shipping to OCS with an SNA contract…

Opportunity of a lifetime.

Do it.

 

[FlightEngineerBobby]

Opportunity of a lifetime.

Do it.

Yes, for us enlisted folks reading this is frustrating. People get lucky I guess, but the fact that you have a slot for SNA via OCS and even have a thought to hold for greener pastures is wild. But hey, if you give up your slot it’ll just free up space for those that would give everything to send it!

 

[zippy]

Question for the group:

Do y'all think airline cadet programs are the way of the future or do you think they'll go away once the shortage is fixed (if it ever does)? In other words, do you think they will be the primary source of airline pilots on the civ side or do you think there will still be a considerable amount of building ratings on one's own without a formal program (independent 141 or 61)?

Due to their cost, time to train and singular focus, I doubt they’ll become the primary pipeline source for airlines. There are so many different ways to get flying if you know what options are available to you.

The airline backed programs are focused on providing a pathway to a place someone wants to go but doesn’t know how to get there from where they are, whether that’s as a pax, gate agent, FA, etc. or a random person whose heard on the news there’s a pilot shortage and wonders if that’s a viable option for them.

As someone who had no direct relationship to civilian or airline pilots growing up and only vaguely understanding that place called Embry-Riddle existed where people went to college to become an airline pilot, one of these airline programs probably would have appealed to me if they existed and had a military sponsored education program not panned out.

The trickiest part to all of these “fast track“ programs (and all civilian ratings gathering in general) is the financing. Pilots aren’t held in the same esteem as doctors etc. in the lending community, where large amounts of money are given to people with zero credit based on their future income potential. $100k is a lot to qualify for if you’ve got no income and a lot to qualify for as a co-signer. I’ve got a buddy whose FedEx Captain mother co-signed on his flight school loans. It’s something that I’ll be in a position to do for children in my extended family if they’re interested but it’s definitely something difficult for the average income family to do.

 

[zippy]

Yes, for us enlisted folks reading this is frustrating. People get lucky I guess, but the fact that you have a slot for SNA via OCS and even have a thought to hold for greener pastures is wild. But hey, if you give up your slot it’ll just free up space for those that would give everything to send it!

Better to figure out ahead of time if this is something they want before they show up.