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Marksmanship

number9 said:
I'm just an 1835, so my platform is a desk and a chair and PowerPoint.

While I realize that I seem to be in the minority on this, I cannot think of a more fundamental skill to have in the armed forces than knowing how to fire a weapon. ?
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If you never need that skill, then why is it fundamental? To take the point even further, why shouldn't the Navy take that ammunition that would have gone to you and give it to someone who does need it so that their proficiency is higher, thus increasing our combat effectiveness and that individual's survivability? As an officer, you should be promoting ideas that foster the efficient use of our taxpayer provided resources while also crushing those ideas that achieve the opposite.
 
number9 said:
I'm just an 1835, so my platform is a desk and a chair and PowerPoint.

While I realize that I seem to be in the minority on this, I cannot think of a more fundamental skill to have in the armed forces than knowing how to fire a weapon. ?
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Because your job in the armed forces doesn't require you to be armed. You're a POG. So am I. So stop thinking that you aren't.


You need to be brilliant in the basics of your job. Those basics don't include shooting and maneuvering.
 
The amount of money you would “save” the government by….. -checks notes- not signing up to knock out your pistol and rifle qualifications is such an inconsequentially small amount of money and resources that it would have next to zero effect on “efficiency”, nor would it detract from an Officer’s overall stance on the efficient use of resources.

If there is a unit somewhere that has open slots on a range, and they allow anybody to sign up, don’t feel like you shouldn’t because “it’s not required for your designator”. Just make sure you aren’t taking any resources away from any SEALs waiting in the wings. ;)
 
Brett327 said:
If you never need that skill, then why is it fundamental? To take the point even further, why shouldn't the Navy take that ammunition that would have gone to you and give it to someone who does need it so that their proficiency is higher, thus increasing our combat effectiveness and that individual's survivability? As an officer, you should be promoting ideas that foster the efficient use of our taxpayer provided resources while also crushing those ideas that achieve the opposite.
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Where do you draw the line as to what's fundamental to a particular rate or designator? I had to complete the swim qual, the damage control trainer, and the basic firefighting school when I went to ODS. While I enjoyed each of them, it is highly unlikely that I will ever go on a ship. If I never need those skills, why are they fundamental?

And, as FLGUY eloquently points out, the "save money" part is hilarious: the amount of ammo I would consume to get qualified would be a rounding error on a rounding error on a rounding error.

Swanee said:
Because your job in the armed forces doesn't require you to be armed. You're a POG. So am I. So stop thinking that you aren't.


You need to be brilliant in the basics of your job. Those basics don't include shooting and maneuvering.
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In all seriousness, I am very aware that I am a POG. I don't think I'm special, and I don't think my designator is special either. However, I do think that everyone in every branch of the armed forces should be able to qualify with their branch's choice of firearms.

What could be more basic in the armed forces than knowing how to shoot?
 
One of the reasons I tend not to get along with Air Force personnel is they tend to look at themselves as having a 9-5 than being in a military branch. I think the lack of a "warriors ethos" is dangerous for any branch.

In 2011 several Air Force working in an office in Afghanistan hid under their desks during a mass shooting. They were armed and the gunmen went around and killed them one by one. The odds of them ever needing to discharge their weapon was slim but it still happened. This is not to speak ill of the dead, but I think it was symptomatic of a lack of the warrior ethos. You may be a finance specialist, but you're still in the military. 9 armed Americans, even with minimal training, need to able to stop a lone gunman.


Link to article for some context of what I mentioned. I saw the security footage during active shooter training while in country, it's not pretty.



**edited grammar
 
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FLGUY said:
The amount of money you would “save” the government by….. -checks notes- not signing up to knock out your pistol and rifle qualifications is such an inconsequentially small amount of money and resources that it would have next to zero effect on “efficiency”, nor would it detract from an Officer’s overall stance on the efficient use of resources.
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I agree that the reality of the situation is that individual NCEA for small arms isn't that much of a cost. But that's not the reality that a unit lives in. Instead, they have to justify (and often beg) for additional NCEA from their ISIC just to meet the required quals, never mind also letting additional people qual. Some units will have more NCEA of a particular ordnance than others, and I agree it's dumb the way the game is played, but that doesn't change the fact that often the actual budget for small arms is hard to come by for A LOT of units, AC or RC.

All that said, if you happen to find a unit that will let you shoot, then by all means. Just don't take it personally when they say they can't afford to let extras sign up.
 
number9 said:
However, I do think that everyone in every branch of the armed forces should be able to qualify with their branch's choice of firearms.

What could be more basic in the armed forces than knowing how to shoot?
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I think every aviator should get more flight hours. What could be more basic? But at the end of the day, there's still a budget.
 
Gatordev said:
I think every aviator should get more flight hours. What could be more basic? But at the end of the day, there's still a budget.
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For my day job I work for a very large company which drives its employees exceptionally hard on efficiency and [cost] savings, so I have no shortage of thoughts on the subject... :)

I don't disagree with you.
 
Gatordev said:
I agree that the reality of the situation is that individual NCEA for small arms isn't that much of a cost. But that's not the reality that a unit lives in. Instead, they have to justify (and often beg) for additional NCEA from their ISIC just to meet the required quals, never mind also letting additional people qual. Some units will have more NCEA of a particular ordnance than others, and I agree it's dumb the way the game is played, but that doesn't change the fact that often the actual budget for small arms is hard to come by for A LOT of units, AC or RC.

All that said, if you happen to find a unit that will let you shoot, then by all means. Just don't take it personally when they say they can't afford to let extras sign up.
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I agree that from the unit level, resources are finite and efficiency is important. My only point (as you also said) is that at the individual level, nothing is wasted if an someone wants to hop on an already open range day schedule.
 
I have not qualified since I was on a DDG in 2011 because we were required to stand armed watches. Even going on MOB with the reserve I never had a requirement to qual.

So basically, if you really want that ribbon, request indefinite recall and redesignation to SWO.
 
snake020 said:
I have not qualified since I was on a DDG in 2011 because we were required to stand armed watches. Even going on MOB with the reserve I never had a requirement to qual.

So basically, if you really want that ribbon, request indefinite recall and redesignation to SWO.
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You had me up to "want that ribbon" :D
 
number9 said:
Where do you draw the line
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The things you've listed are requirements, while your proficiency at shooting a pistol isn't. Your chances of winding up in the drink during a deployment at sea, for example, far outweigh your chances of needing to use small arms during that same underway period. People with expertise have made those decisions for you and codified them as policy. They've done the thinking for you.
 
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