M-16 vs M-4 vs What?

[Fly Navy]

I guess those old rifles are sort of like Samurai swords. Beautiful to look at, Amazing to hold, but time has made them impractical.

Sorta. But don't let your guard down. I've seen people shoot an M1 faster and reload an M1 faster than someone with an M-16. While outdated, these weapons are still very sufficient to kill the enemy... or you.

I do highly recommend to you and everyone, if you get a chance to shoot a BAR, DO IT! Price is no issue, it's worth every penny for that historical experience. Plus, it's so damn heavy, it makes .30-06 feel soft lol

 

[Bajastylee]

About the M14. I dont know if you guys know this but we still use them here in the Army. They havent seen much use here in the Ghan but in a more conventional war I can see it being used alot, even in Iraq. I havent shot one yet but I will soon enough. And does anybody out there know if the Marines still use it.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

I don't think they are in Marine general issue... maybe Force Recon still has them. I've seen lots of M-14s w/ scopes in video from Iraq. Haven't seen much video from Afghanistan.

The M-14 is my personal favorite; Tears of the Sun has some great scenes where the SEAL with the M14 is firing the enemy up.

 

[Fly Navy]

About the M14. I dont know if you guys know this but we still use them here in the Army. They havent seen much use here in the Ghan but in a more conventional war I can see it being used alot, even in Iraq. I havent shot one yet but I will soon enough. And does anybody out there know if the Marines still use it.

Still use? The M-4 is a newer "design" than the M-16A2.

That being said, stay safe over there. And have fun shooting your M-4... though I guess in the line of duty, it's not always "fun".

 

[A4sForever]

And while we are bringing back old rifles for no reason other than because they look cool...we should update this badboy and bring it back into service

The BAR . One of John Browining's finest .... Absolutely !!! I jumped through all the legal hoops and had one several years ago --- Arizona -- but later sold it . I was first introduced to the BAR on Middie 2nd class cruise -- the Riverine Force was training in San Diego and as we spent some time with them we got to fire all the weapons they used --- many WW2 vintage and what we were giving the SViets. Thompsons, too .... if I did not live in WA and HI, I would have a BAR and a Thompson today ....

 

[A4sForever]

...... Your still limited on the barrel length of a gun, I.E. you as a private citizen are not permitted to buy the 11 inch barrel uppers for an AR-15.

Actually, you can --- 16" is the legal minimum barrel length for rifles, however a muzzle brake or flash supressor that is "permanently attached" (i.e., permanently pinned or soldered) per ATF specifications counts as part of the barrel length. Sooooooo ..... you can have a Colt "Commando" or XM-177 style and "look" and be completely legal without doing the BATF dance .... have a Colt 11.5 barrel and solder a 5 " XM-177 style flash supressor on it.... and even better --- it's 16.5 " I always did like math ....

Disregard the "smoke/flare launcher" in the pix .....

 

[Fly Navy]

Or just do the BATF red-tape and get your tax stamp for a SBR

 

[A4sForever]

Or just do the BATF red-tape and get your tax stamp for a SBR

In a perfect world .... but not in WA or HI ... and others.

 

[A4sForever]

I like how the FAL looks, and it was RIDICULOUSLY popular in the Western armies. I want one for sh!ts and giggles.

FLY: Have you tried DSA, Inc. of Barrington, IL ??? http://www.dsarms.com/index.cfm

The Sept 2004 American Rifleman included a test of the DSA T48 (from the SA58 series) and a generalized discussion of the FAL-type rifle in the "Dope Bag" section of the issue. You can also link off DSA's website to many other magazine articles pertaining to their products. DSA Collector Series T48 price @ $1700 .....

Sounds like theirs is about as good as any shooter out there unless you want a "collectible" Belgian or Australian. Then bring $5000 and green stamps ....

 

[Fly Navy]

I would love a FAL once I get the money. I've seen DSA before, good stuff!

I almost bought a SAR-1 yesterday, but someone swiped it before I could. Completely rebuilt and refinished, it was gorgeous. Oh well.

 

[A4sForever]

A couple of guys have mentioned the Benelli M4 .... I use to have an M1 Super 90 and really, really, liked it. The M1 was very close to the current M4 (developed as the XM1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun -- M1014 JSCS -- for the Army, but the USMC will get the first 20,000 production run).

I placed second out of 35 in a LEO shotgun competition @ a "firearms training school in the SouthWest" using the M1 Super 90 --- got beat by a guy using a Remington 870 pump, for Pete's sake !!! One thing you may want to consider, however. The evil, Anti-Boxer/Fienstein "pistol grip" may be more trouble that it is worth. I originally had mine configured like that -- out of the box -- pre-ban, etc. .... and during the weapons retention portion of the course I learned a nasty little secret @ the pistol grip. If/when you grapple and the opponent gets his paws on the barrel --- he can "twist/push-up" and the only question is:

Is your wrist going to break prior to dislocating your thumb before you let go of the weapon ???

Try it and you will see what I am talking about. Soooooooooooooo ..... I retrofitted it with a "standard" stock --- not quite as "sexy", but more utilitarian. If some miscreant grapples and grabs the barrel in an attempt to "twist" it away from you --- just raise the "standard" stock overhead and pull trigger, thus "removing" the goblin from the barrel --- problem solved.

 

[Mayday]

Another Marine weighing in...

Yeah, I'd like to hear what experienced Marines have to say about it. Though, I've found they too can be very ignorant. I once had an Infantry Marine tell me that the 7.62x39mm round is sub-sonic and that the 5.56 NATO round tumbles through the air. Some people will believe anything you tell them I guess.

Sadly, I have to admit that we're taught that trash in boot camp, or at least were when I went through, by the unknown distance course (pop-up targets in a field) instructors, of all people. My own theory was and has been that the 5.52 traces the same sort of flight profile as a well-thrown football, i.e. the gyroscopic effect of it's spinning keeps it in the same attitude as when it exited the barrel, so if it strikes a soft target (read:body) on "descent," the nose strikes it off-axis in relation to the attitude, which causes the bullet to tumble briefly in the body. [Please don't laugh me out of the thread, I don't have the expertise that you two do. That's my own interpretation.] My theory is such because I have seen what it can do to an ammo can full of jello @ 300yds, and it's not pretty!
I can personally attest to the fact that it fails to stop a target with any less than two body hits, almost every time. Aarrgh! It usually slows 'em down enough for you to point them out to your 240G gunner though! :icon_tong
I do second the nomination of the M4, as far as mobility with all the gear on goes. Sitting on a 3 point harness makes it an easy "sling n' ping" too.
Only got to shoot the A4 once, can't say anything about field performance. Thanks for posting all the other info, I learn something every time I swing by...

 

[Mayday]

Disregard the "smoke/flare launcher" in the pix .....

Smoke/flare launcher my @$$. Looks about as close to a 203 is you can get. Can it do what it looks like it can do?

I don't think they are in Marine general issue... maybe Force Recon still has them. I've seen lots of M-14s w/ scopes in video from Iraq. Haven't seen much video from Afghanistan.

Force Recon does maintain a customized M14

as a standard supplement to the M40

and the M82A3 Light .50

in their individual combat arms arsenal. The scout snipers occasionally use the MC custom 14 as well.

Has anybody ever seen/fired an MSSR? I had the priviledge of being shown one by a Philipine Marine, and it's fascinated me ever since. Something about the aid of optics vice iron sights to get those 5.56's on target, I think... He said they were working on a sound suppressed version too. What fun.

 

[Fly Navy]

Sadly, I have to admit that we're taught that trash in boot camp, or at least were when I went through, by the unknown distance course (pop-up targets in a field) instructors, of all people. My own theory was and has been that the 5.52 traces the same sort of flight profile as a well-thrown football, i.e. the gyroscopic effect of it's spinning keeps it in the same attitude as when it exited the barrel, so if it strikes a soft target (read:body) on "descent," the nose strikes it off-axis in relation to the attitude, which causes the bullet to tumble briefly in the body. [Please don't laugh me out of the thread, I don't have the expertise that you two do. That's my own interpretation.] My theory is such because I have seen what it can do to an ammo can full of jello @ 300yds, and it's not pretty!
I can personally attest to the fact that it fails to stop a target with any less than two body hits, almost every time. Aarrgh! It usually slows 'em down enough for you to point them out to your 240G gunner though! :icon_tong

The tumbling caused by entering something like flesh is relatively simple actually. Most rifle bullets will experience a tumbling effect upon hitting something like flesh, because most rifle bullets are base heavy. In the air, nothing is going to cause it to right itself base forward, but when it strikes a medium like flesh, it will. Some bullets take more penetration to do this, therefore you may never see it in a human body. Some are designed not to do it.

Yep, jello... water bottles... fruit... etc.... 5.56 NATO makes em go BOOM

You should see Winchester Ranger-T 9mm 127gr +P+ on a milk jug full of water at 15 yds

 

[Mayday]

Fly -
See above about MSSR. Ever seen/shot one? Wonder what you think.